Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by taxwonk

It's a good piece. I think I agree with most of it, except my already stated belief that he really failed on privacy issues, which Sullivan seems inclined to cut him slack on. He also notes another issue where I part company with Obama (and most of the country): the Wall Street bailout. I don't believe any company is too big to fail. But that's just me. I don't expect anyone to agree with me on that, either. But other than those two points, you're right. He nailed it.

I hear you. And if it weren't for the fact that the economy was teetering and one huge bank had already just failed, I would agree. Let them go down. But you let one more bank collapse in '08 and everything comes down. Everywhere. Rioting in the streets. Cats and dogs living together. Homosexuals marrying.

TM

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Sidd, this is the sort of simplistic and silly stuff I was disagreeing with.

I don't disagree with you. Islam is an old religion and subject to a huge range of interpretations, as any other.

Here, in sum, is my view, or part of it. You and GGG and Wonk anyone else can feel free to call me racist, or tell me that I obviously hate all Muslims, or any other shit you feel like spewing. Forgive me in advance for not responding.

Today, and in recent years, violent extremists that find their inspiration and justification in religion are largely Muslim. (That does not mean "exclusively" Muslim, nor "all Muslims are bad," nor that there are not violent extremists finding their justification in something other than religion, such as national identity or race.)

These violent extremists get a level of support and sympathy among Muslims that I view as far too high -- higher than I would expect if, say, Catholic militias were blowing up Protestant churches and vice versa. (This does not mean that there has never been horrifying sectarian violence among Christians that many Christians supported or did not protest.)

Part of that support is seen in the phenomenon of Muslims from Western countries joining overseas extremist groups in a way that I believe is extraordinary in history.

Islam -- not inherently, but the way in which it is being taught to people -- has something to do with the above. I don't know why. I don't know why a Sunni cares so much about who Muhammad designated as his successor that he would kill a Shiite. In some instances, "has something to do with" means "is a primary factor," in others it means "contributes to, along with many other factors."

Islamic countries -- countries that are not just predominantly Muslim, but in which Islam is a dominant cultural fact and influence (for example, countries in which you can be jailed for defaming Islam) -- have certain cultural norms that I find disgusting, particularly relating to the treatment of women. (This does not mean that no non-Muslim nations treat women poorly.) That treatment is not limited to government policy but permeates down to a man-on-the-street level, and is often worse at that level, and in my personal experience also carries over, to a thankfully lesser extent, to Muslims who do not live in Islamic countries.

I believe that the way Islam is taught has a great deal to do with the last item, too.

All of the above does NOT lead me to believe that Islam is evil, or Muslims are evil. It does lead me to believe that there is a problem within Islam, generally, that needs to be fixed within Islam. In a similar vein to how I believe that there is a problem of racism within American society, that needs to be fixed within American society.

All of the above renders me a bile-spouting Muslim hater, I realize.

[Hank Chinaski]

I was thinking about short term prejudice, like in reaction to some event, and whether a blurted out statement is forgivable or, ignorable maybe-

October 2001 I saw David Sedaris reading stories. He was living in Paris at the time and talking about how on edge he felt in a city with a large Islamic population as the US was gearing up to do war. He said "Frankly, I think we should turn the entire Middle East into a parking lot." If you don't know his work, this was not in keeping with his normal views.

A few years I saw him read again and by then he had dropped his original position and was hating on W for keeping wars going. This was much more in line with what I'd have expected from him.

And on one level, after 9/11 you might forgive, or understand, an extremely nasty statement as not indicative of a person's feelings. But on another level even fantasizing about mass genocide of entire populations seems to evidence a basic hate that might be normally kept hidden.

I still read his books. Should I?

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Yeh, lots of bad shit. Of course, there's other bad shit in the world. Ask yourself, would you rather go out at Abu Gharib or with a beheading?

You act like it's all filet mignon and blowjobs during the time prisoners are held before beheading. What a stupid thing to say.

I do not understand why we can't have a conversation about one thing without you constantly saying, "Hey! But look at all this other bad shit!" Yeah. That shit is bad too, whether it's in the past or being carried out right now. I don't need to talk about why McVeigh is drawn to radical militia-type groups. He's a fucking poor white man who thinks the government hates him and loves minorities. I don't need to talk about why the klan committed acts of terrorism. They're poor white people who were always told they were better than jews and blacks and who desperately wanted to hold on to that belief in a changing world.

If the answer to why so many people commit violent acts in the name of Allah is as simple as they are poor, disaffected and angry at the West, who they have been told is waging a religious war against muslims and brown-skinned people in general, then ok. Maybe that's the answer. But I don't get why we can't have a discussion about all the evil shit so many mullahs do in the name of Islam to women and non-western non-believers. It's like it's perfectly acceptable to read an article by a muslim woman who was raped and had to flee her homeland so she wouldn't be subject to an honor killing. But when I point to that article, all of a sudden it's a fucking problem.

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

One of the things you are seeing with ISIS in terms of military strategy is a fundamentalist version of shock and awe, a policy we carried out behind a ton of armor and often from the safety of drone control rooms. A key goal for IS is to absolutely terrify people so they will surrender or run, making the military conquests much easier.

Similar approaches were used by Christians in the Balkan ethnic cleansing and the Ugandan genocide, though things like gang rapes (including of children) and mutilation were the Christians' preferred weapons of choice, and in each of those cases the places to run was much more limited so the death toll considerably higher. If they had our armor and our weaponry, more of their killing would be civilized like ours - you know, blowing people's limbs off so they bleed to death at a wedding, bombs filled with shrapnel so they shred a lot of flesh, whether they kill or maim. But we like to be smug and say we're civilized. It's an old story.

What's funny about this is that your buddy Bill Maher was fired way back because he said that the people who flew the planes into the WTC weren't cowards, as every Western person was calling them at that point. He said committing suicide in furtherance of their cause (no matter how fucked up the cause) was the exact opposite of cowardice. But that is neither here nor there.

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Once again, not denying that lots of bad stuff happens in countries that are Islamic, but I fail to see Islam as intrinsically or particularly evil.

Why are you even saying this. Roughly NO ONE has made this argument anywhere on this board. Jesus fucking Christ.

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Also, if we really looked hard at what fuels political Islam, we would be dealing very, very differently with our good friends in Saudi Arabia, who are at the very root of the problems and always have been, and also very differently with many people in places like Lebanon, Turkey, and even Iran, where there are Islamic groups we could work with who would be a more effective alternative to some of the bad guys.

Yes. Let's.

Sidd's right. This conversation has gone off the rails. One side is continually talking about the problem with a not insignificant part of the Islamic community, particularly in the Middle East, and wondering why that portion is so violent not just with acts of terrorism against us, but against women, people who live as neighbors who don't share the same beliefs, people who draw cartoons, people who write books, etc. Apparently no one can even ask that question because there are other groups of people out there who do evil shit too, like us. The other side keeps insisting that we stop talking about how Islam is evil. What the fuck? This is ridiculous.

TM

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

I don't disagree with you. Islam is an old religion and subject to a huge range of interpretations, as any other.

Here, in sum, is my view, or part of it. You and GGG and Wonk anyone else can feel free to call me racist, or tell me that I obviously hate all Muslims, or any other shit you feel like spewing. Forgive me in advance for not responding.

Today, and in recent years, violent extremists that find their inspiration and justification in religion are largely Muslim. (That does not mean "exclusively" Muslim, nor "all Muslims are bad," nor that there are not violent extremists finding their justification in something other than religion, such as national identity or race.)

These violent extremists get a level of support and sympathy among Muslims that I view as far too high -- higher than I would expect if, say, Catholic militias were blowing up Protestant churches and vice versa. (This does not mean that there has never been horrifying sectarian violence among Christians that many Christians supported or did not protest.)

Part of that support is seen in the phenomenon of Muslims from Western countries joining overseas extremist groups in a way that I believe is extraordinary in history.

Islam -- not inherently, but the way in which it is being taught to people -- has something to do with the above. I don't know why. I don't know why a Sunni cares so much about who Muhammad designated as his successor that he would kill a Shiite. In some instances, "has something to do with" means "is a primary factor," in others it means "contributes to, along with many other factors."

Islamic countries -- countries that are not just predominantly Muslim, but in which Islam is a dominant cultural fact and influence (for example, countries in which you can be jailed for defaming Islam) -- have certain cultural norms that I find disgusting, particularly relating to the treatment of women. (This does not mean that no non-Muslim nations treat women poorly.) That treatment is not limited to government policy but permeates down to a man-on-the-street level, and is often worse at that level, and in my personal experience also carries over, to a thankfully lesser extent, to Muslims who do not live in Islamic countries.

I believe that the way Islam is taught has a great deal to do with the last item, too.

All of the above does NOT lead me to believe that Islam is evil, or Muslims are evil. It does lead me to believe that there is a problem within Islam, generally, that needs to be fixed within Islam. In a similar vein to how I believe that there is a problem of racism within American society, that needs to be fixed within American society.

All of the above renders me a bile-spouting Muslim hater, I realize.

Well fucking said. I agree.

TM

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

but it's sold as the religion.

It's always sold as the religion. That's what organized religion's function is. It just comes down to a matter of degree. Some need the simple assurance that they are not alone and life has some purpose. Others need more, and they will always find a holy man willing to meet that need, in exchange for what they have to give.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

Ask him what an HSA is.

That's easy. An HSA is a smoke screen that is designed to make you pay more for your health care and think the G is giving you a break on it.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Yeh, lots of bad shit. Of course, there's other bad shit in the world. Ask yourself, would you rather go out at Abu Gharib or with a beheading?

One of the things you are seeing with ISIS in terms of military strategy is a fundamentalist version of shock and awe, a policy we carried out behind a ton of armor and often from the safety of drone control rooms. A key goal for IS is to absolutely terrify people so they will surrender or run, making the military conquests much easier.

Similar approaches were used by Christians in the Balkan ethnic cleansing and the Ugandan genocide, though things like gang rapes (including of children) and mutilation were the Christians' preferred weapons of choice, and in each of those cases the places to run was much more limited so the death toll considerably higher. If they had our armor and our weaponry, more of their killing would be civilized like ours - you know, blowing people's limbs off so they bleed to death at a wedding, bombs filled with shrapnel so they shred a lot of flesh, whether they kill or maim. But we like to be smug and say we're civilized. It's an old story.

Once again, not denying that lots of bad stuff happens in countries that are Islamic, but I fail to see Islam as intrinsically or particularly evil. The reason to care about the debate has nothing to do with some smarmy asshole of a comic's ratings or whether a two-bit Hollywood pretty boy gets excited on TV. The reason to care is that ultimately Islam is goingto be one component of the various solutions in the Middle Eastern countries dealing with radical Islam, and the mix of bigotry and phobia that characterizes American's dealing with Islam is a barrier to that.

Also, if we really looked hard at what fuels political Islam, we would be dealing very, very differently with our good friends in Saudi Arabia, who are at the very root of the problems and always have been, and also very differently with many people in places like Lebanon, Turkey, and even Iran, where there are Islamic groups we could work with who would be a more effective alternative to some of the bad guys.

Salaam.

Gang rapes and mutilation are as much a part of the ISIS arsenal as anyone else's. They are practicing savagery on a massive scale and that is a big component of their strategy. They are inhuman savages undeserving of any quarter, much as they offer none to their opponents.

Don't let a good point get dragged down by offering any sort of support for those assholes.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Big piece of Islam's appeal. There is a very strong social justice and empowerment of the dispossessed element in Islamic theology.

Of course. That's part of God's bag, no matter what address he's listing. First taste is always free.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Not Bob

25 years since the Berlin Wall fell. Nice to be reminded that change can be a good thing.

Also a good time to call attention to the fact that Putin seems to be trying to erect a new one, even if it has pulled back a bit to the East.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I hear you. And if it weren't for the fact that the economy was teetering and one huge bank had already just failed, I would agree. Let them go down. But you let one more bank collapse in '08 and everything comes down. Everywhere. Rioting in the streets. Cats and dogs living together. Homosexuals marrying.

TM

I hear you. But I think the whole thing could have come crashing down and the folks living on the street, or the ones living 8 to a studio apartment with no heat or running water wouldn't even have noticed. The hungry people wouldn't have been any more hungry. These days, I'm feeling it a lot more for them than I am for Jamie Dimon.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

All of the above renders me a bile-spouting Muslim hater, I realize.

Well, as long as you realize it, that's what's important, Bubbelleh.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

You act like it's all filet mignon and blowjobs during the time prisoners are held before beheading. What a stupid thing to say.

I do not understand why we can't have a conversation about one thing without you constantly saying, "Hey! But look at all this other bad shit!" Yeah. That shit is bad too, whether it's in the past or being carried out right now. I don't need to talk about why McVeigh is drawn to radical militia-type groups. He's a fucking poor white man who thinks the government hates him and loves minorities. I don't need to talk about why the klan committed acts of terrorism. They're poor white people who were always told they were better than jews and blacks and who desperately wanted to hold on to that belief in a changing world.

If the answer to why so many people commit violent acts in the name of Allah is as simple as they are poor, disaffected and angry at the West, who they have been told is waging a religious war against muslims and brown-skinned people in general, then ok. Maybe that's the answer. But I don't get why we can't have a discussion about all the evil shit so many mullahs do in the name of Islam to women and non-western non-believers. It's like it's perfectly acceptable to read an article by a muslim woman who was raped and had to flee her homeland so she wouldn't be subject to an honor killing. But when I point to that article, all of a sudden it's a fucking problem.

What's funny about this is that your buddy Bill Maher was fired way back because he said that the people who flew the planes into the WTC weren't cowards, as every Western person was calling them at that point. He said committing suicide in furtherance of their cause (no matter how fucked up the cause) was the exact opposite of cowardice. But that is neither here nor there.

Why are you even saying this. Roughly NO ONE has made this argument anywhere on this board. Jesus fucking Christ.

Yes. Let's.

Sidd's right. This conversation has gone off the rails. One side is continually talking about the problem with a not insignificant part of the Islamic community, particularly in the Middle East, and wondering why that portion is so violent not just with acts of terrorism against us, but against women, people who live as neighbors who don't share the same beliefs, people who draw cartoons, people who write books, etc. Apparently no one can even ask that question because there are other groups of people out there who do evil shit too, like us. The other side keeps insisting that we stop talking about how Islam is evil. What the fuck? This is ridiculous.

TM

I don't think the argument was or is about saying that there are some Muslims doing bad shit and teaching others that it's okay to do bad shit in the name of Allah. That is crystal clear and undisputable. What I was picking up in the discourse, and if I was misinterpreting, I'm sorry and I'll take it all back, was the suggestion that there was something inherent in Islam, unique to any other religious following, that was encouraging or nurturing that teaching.

Again, if I was reading too much into what anyone said, I'm sorry.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by taxwonk

I hear you. But I think the whole thing could have come crashing down and the folks living on the street, or the ones living 8 to a studio apartment with no heat or running water wouldn't even have noticed. The hungry people wouldn't have been any more hungry. These days, I'm feeling it a lot more for them than I am for Jamie Dimon.

Why increase the ranks of hungry people? The super rich wouldn't go hungry. The whole middle class would.

It would have been nice if the electorate was smart enough to understand what happened and decided to completely redo our financial system by electing people who would carry that out. But that wouldn't be fair. What if they were the rich ones?

TM

[Adder]

Originally Posted by taxwonk

I hear you. But I think the whole thing could have come crashing down and the folks living on the street, or the ones living 8 to a studio apartment with no heat or running water wouldn't even have noticed. The hungry people wouldn't have been any more hungry. These days, I'm feeling it a lot more for them than I am for Jamie Dimon.

They wouldn't be any worse off, but there would be a whole lot more of them.

A bank run is a real thing that has real consequences outside the banking system. Which is why we should be regulating the heck out of them, like we used to.