Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

the same ignorance is the well-spring but in one case isn't it "this kid might SHOOT ME!" and in the other "a kid like that is likely to be carrying dope and getting him off the streets is going to make everyone safer?"

I fail to see the distinction.

TM

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I fail to see the distinction.

TM

I was simply trying to explain what Sebby meant (or what i think he meant).

[Adder]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I can give you a few examples:

1. Some are actually outright taught, whether it's "You should hate black people because they're all thugs who want your money or vagina," or the more subtle influence of being with your mom or friend when she clutches her purse closer or crosses the street when a black man approaches

2. Some are taught because of ignorance bred from under-exposure (ghettos are created in places easy for all non-ghetto people to avoid, white people flee cities in favor of lilly white suburbs and gated-communities, etc.)

3. Popular culture: from beauty standards, to acting opportunities, to the types of "black" music embraced and disbursed by white people, stereotypes created around fear win the day

4. Rush Limbaugh and his ilk

5. Media issues: Whether we're talking about darkening OJ's skin on the cover of a magazine to make him more menacing or reporting on crack cocaine and how it's creating a generation of crack babies (complete bullshit), while completely ignoring how much worse meth has been in this country. Hell, picture a white dude who smokes weed in your head and then picture a black one. Is one of them a college dude who enjoys a good bong toke and the other a dark-skinned criminal in a hoodie and skully pulling on a blunt while looking menacingly at everyone?

6. The drug war, which has been waged primarily against minorities (even though drug use numbers are almost exactly the same between whites and blacks), which results in a higher incarceration rate for blacks, which feeds fear and stop-and-frisk and 3-strikes policies

7. Politicians: Don't get me started. The fears they constantly stoke with ad campaigns of black men coming to get you while running on a tough-on-crime platform. Palin-types who say shit like, "let's take back our country" or "Obama pals around with terrorists" or "He's from Nigeria, he's not American, he's a community organizer [or any other dog-whistle bullshit]" to a group of rabid racists

I can go on and on. Fuck, I went to a Halloween party in New York fucking City last month and dressed as a member of Run DMC and 3 white girls (separately) asked if I was a thug. You don't think that fear is constantly being taught? You're sure as hell not born with it.

TM

We could also go with, "Statistically, young black males are involved in more crime than other groups"

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I can give you a few examples:

1. Some are actually outright taught, whether it's "You should hate black people because they're all thugs who want your money or vagina," or the more subtle influence of being with your mom or friend when she clutches her purse closer or crosses the street when a black man approaches

2. Some are taught because of ignorance bred from under-exposure (ghettos are created in places easy for all non-ghetto people to avoid, white people flee cities in favor of lilly white suburbs and gated-communities, etc.)

3. Popular culture: from beauty standards, to acting opportunities, to the types of "black" music embraced and disbursed by white people, stereotypes created around fear win the day

4. Rush Limbaugh and his ilk

5. Media issues: Whether we're talking about darkening OJ's skin on the cover of a magazine to make him more menacing or reporting on crack cocaine and how it's creating a generation of crack babies (complete bullshit), while completely ignoring how much worse meth has been in this country. Hell, picture a white dude who smokes weed in your head and then picture a black one. Is one of them a college dude who enjoys a good bong toke and the other a dark-skinned criminal in a hoodie and skully pulling on a blunt while looking menacingly at everyone?

6. The drug war, which has been waged primarily against minorities (even though drug use numbers are almost exactly the same between whites and blacks), which results in a higher incarceration rate for blacks, which feeds fear and stop-and-frisk and 3-strikes policies

7. Politicians: Don't get me started. The fears they constantly stoke with ad campaigns of black men coming to get you while running on a tough-on-crime platform. Palin-types who say shit like, "let's take back our country" or "Obama pals around with terrorists" or "He's from Nigeria, he's not American, he's a community organizer [or any other dog-whistle bullshit]" to a group of rabid racists

I can go on and on. Fuck, I went to a Halloween party in New York fucking City last month and dressed as a member of Run DMC and 3 white girls (separately) asked if I was a thug. You don't think that fear is constantly being taught? You're sure as hell not born with it.

TM

What about real life experience? When that fear is learned through personal experience rather than taught? I've seen enough to where I am crossing the street when I see a group of young, poorly dressed black men walking towards me at night. Am I being fearful or am I making a reasoned decision based on probability? Probably both. Isn't crossing the street the smart thing to do? Would you cross the street? And if you wouldn't cross the street, would it only be because you are telling yourself that's what a racist person would do?

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

I was simply trying to explain what Sebby meant (or what i think he meant).

I know. I'm not attacking you. I'm asking you to think about the word "safety" in your second example and ask yourself what the actual difference is between your two examples.

TM

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?

What about real life experience? When that fear is learned through personal experience rather than taught? I've seen enough to where I am crossing the street when I see a group of young, poorly dressed black men walking towards me at night. Am I being fearful or am I making a reasoned decision based on probability? Probably both. Isn't crossing the street the smart thing to do? Would you cross the street? And if you wouldn't cross the street, would it only be because you are telling yourself that's what a racist person would do?

Recently I found myself crossing the street mid-block only to realize that there was a black man coming the other way on the side I was crossing from. My crossing had nothing to do with him, as I really was just going that way, but I felt a little bad about it.

Which is not to say that I would not do it on purpose if I felt it was the smart thing to do in the circumstances. A group of young men behaving boisterously I would cross to get away from, and, yeah, probably even more likely if they were black.

I can't claim to be free of the instinct that young black men are dangerous. But that doesn't make the instinct not racist.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?

What about real life experience? When that fear is learned through personal experience rather than taught? I've seen enough to where I am crossing the street when I see a group of young, poorly dressed black men walking towards me at night. Am I being fearful or am I making a reasoned decision based on probability? Probably both. Isn't crossing the street the smart thing to do? Would you cross the street? And if you wouldn't cross the street, would it only be because you are telling yourself that's what a racist person would do?

I like that you zero'd in on the one example that makes you the most uncomfortable. But let's talk about it.

If you see a group of teenagers who are dressed poorly, I imagine that you cross the street whether they are black, white, hispanic, asian, or any combination. If you're telling me you only cross the street when they're black, I'd probably think you are an asshole (and a liar).

But let's change your hypothetical. I'm a black (albeit way too light-skinned), grown up. If you saw me (and just me) walking toward you in sweats at night (like I was coming from the fucking gym), would you cross the street? Would you do that if a similarly-aged white partner from a law firm in the exact same outfit with the exact same build approached you in the exact same circumstances? If you were a woman, would you clutch your purse or your child a little tighter for one and not the other? Would you lock your car doors with your kids in the back?

Are all the instances when I experience that bullshit, based on personal experience of being attacked by a black man? Or do you think that's based on fear that's passed on constantly in a myriad of different ways (including those I listed above)?

TM

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally Posted by Adder

Recently I found myself crossing the street mid-block only to realize that there was a black man coming the other way on the side I was crossing from. My crossing had nothing to do with him, as I really was just going that way, but I felt a little bad about it.

Which is not to say that I would not do it on purpose if I felt it was the smart thing to do in the circumstances. A group of young men behaving boisterously I would cross to get away from, and, yeah, probably even more likely if they were black.

I can't claim to be free of the instinct that young black men are dangerous. But that doesn't make the instinct not racist.

Agree. But I don't think it's necessarily fair to blame everyone else for the existence of that fear. Much of what TM said about the sources of that fear are probably true, but some of that fear is based in reality. Now, whether that reality is a result of centuries of oppression, racism, etc. is a different question.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I can give you a few examples:

1. Some are actually outright taught, whether it's "You should hate black people because they're all thugs who want your money or vagina," or the more subtle influence of being with your mom or friend when she clutches her purse closer or crosses the street when a black man approaches

2. Some are taught because of ignorance bred from under-exposure (ghettos are created in places easy for all non-ghetto people to avoid, white people flee cities in favor of lilly white suburbs and gated-communities, etc.)

3. Popular culture: from beauty standards, to acting opportunities, to the types of "black" music embraced and disbursed by white people, stereotypes created around fear win the day

4. Rush Limbaugh and his ilk

5. Media issues: Whether we're talking about darkening OJ's skin on the cover of a magazine to make him more menacing or reporting on crack cocaine and how it's creating a generation of crack babies (complete bullshit), while completely ignoring how much worse meth has been in this country. Hell, picture a white dude who smokes weed in your head and then picture a black one. Is one of them a college dude who enjoys a good bong toke and the other a dark-skinned criminal in a hoodie and skully pulling on a blunt while looking menacingly at everyone?

6. The drug war, which has been waged primarily against minorities (even though drug use numbers are almost exactly the same between whites and blacks), which results in a higher incarceration rate for blacks, which feeds fear and stop-and-frisk and 3-strikes policies

7. Politicians: Don't get me started. The fears they constantly stoke with ad campaigns of black men coming to get you while running on a tough-on-crime platform. Palin-types who say shit like, "let's take back our country" or "Obama pals around with terrorists" or "He's from Nigeria, he's not American, he's a community organizer [or any other dog-whistle bullshit]" to a group of rabid racists

I can go on and on. Fuck, I went to a Halloween party in New York fucking City last month and dressed as a member of Run DMC and 3 white girls (separately) asked if I was a thug. You don't think that fear is constantly being taught? You're sure as hell not born with it.

TM

Once I heard my brother's wife say to her daughter, who was around 8 and holding a $20 (?) bill my father had given her on the way to the mall, "Lauren, put your money in your pocket or some black man is going to come up and take it from you."

At a Thanksgiving party my uncle, who did not have the excuse of being drunk, having spent the day talking about how black people were inferior ("look at Europe -- they had churches and monuments and symphonies when Africans were still living in trees!") and seen me basically ignore him, grabbed me on the way out and said "You're a liberal. What'll change your mind is when some nigger rapes your wife and leaves her for dead."

I could probably recount dozens of these vignettes, hundreds if I really tried. They are generally from the 1970s and 1980s. I think it's getting better.....

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Adder

You're talking about these things as if they are conscious decisions.

Mike Brown and Trayvon Martin (and many others) did not get killed because someone went out seeking to be a racist asshole that day.

The power dynamics you guys are talking about play a role too, absolutely. But their blackness is absolutely key to some dumb asshole thinking they are dangerous and deciding to shoot.

The two are not inconsistent. However, I acknowledge that yes, Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown did not get shot because some someone woke up that morning and decided to be a racist asshole. They got shot because someone woke up that morning being a racist asshole. In a society that they felt confident would shield them if they shot someone for being Black.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

can you think of a webpage where rich white people write off poor rural white people as shiftless idiots?

Does Paul Ryan have a web page?

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I like that you zero'd in on the one example that makes you the most uncomfortable. But let's talk about it.

Honestly not really sure what you mean by this.

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

If you see a group of teenagers who are dressed poorly, I imagine that you cross the street whether they are black, white, hispanic, asian, or any combination. If you're telling me you only cross the street when they're black, I'd probably think you are an asshole (and a liar).

I don't really know the answer to this except that I think it's more likely that I'd cross the street if the group were black. But I'm actually guessing at how I'd react instinctively, and that's an honest guess. In that situation, I'd probably be half-way across the street before I even thought about the racial undertones of the decision. And then I'd probably feel guilty about it. You can call me an asshole, I guess, but I'd say it's my subconscious brain "playing the odds". But maybe your point is that the odds in my brain are wrong because of all of your stated sources of fear.

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

But let's change your hypothetical. I'm a black (albeit way too light-skinned), grown up. If you saw me (and just me) walking toward you in sweats at night (like I was coming from the fucking gym), would you cross the street? Would you do that if a similarly-aged white partner from a law firm in the exact same outfit with the exact same build approached you in the exact same circumstances? If you were a woman, would you clutch your purse or your child a little tighter for one and not the other? Would you lock your car doors with your kids in the back?

Are all the instances when I experience that bullshit, based on personal experience of being attacked by a black man? Or do you think that's based on fear that's passed on constantly in a myriad of different ways (including those I listed above)?

I think in your first hypothetical I wouldn't cross the street for you. In fact that exact same situation happens to me relatively frequently in Chicago and I've never crossed the street.

Anyway, I agree with you that the sources you state of the fear-of-young-black-men are causative of that perception. I just don't think that all of that perception is necessarily taught.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

http://money.cnn.com/2014/11/19/medi...ech/index.html I guess we are a country happy to stay uniformed idiots?

Yes. For the most part, we do.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I can give you a few examples:

1. Some are actually outright taught, whether it's "You should hate black people because they're all thugs who want your money or vagina," or the more subtle influence of being with your mom or friend when she clutches her purse closer or crosses the street when a black man approaches

2. Some are taught because of ignorance bred from under-exposure (ghettos are created in places easy for all non-ghetto people to avoid, white people flee cities in favor of lilly white suburbs and gated-communities, etc.)

3. Popular culture: from beauty standards, to acting opportunities, to the types of "black" music embraced and disbursed by white people, stereotypes created around fear win the day

4. Rush Limbaugh and his ilk

5. Media issues: Whether we're talking about darkening OJ's skin on the cover of a magazine to make him more menacing or reporting on crack cocaine and how it's creating a generation of crack babies (complete bullshit), while completely ignoring how much worse meth has been in this country. Hell, picture a white dude who smokes weed in your head and then picture a black one. Is one of them a college dude who enjoys a good bong toke and the other a dark-skinned criminal in a hoodie and skully pulling on a blunt while looking menacingly at everyone?

6. The drug war, which has been waged primarily against minorities (even though drug use numbers are almost exactly the same between whites and blacks), which results in a higher incarceration rate for blacks, which feeds fear and stop-and-frisk and 3-strikes policies

7. Politicians: Don't get me started. The fears they constantly stoke with ad campaigns of black men coming to get you while running on a tough-on-crime platform. Palin-types who say shit like, "let's take back our country" or "Obama pals around with terrorists" or "He's from Nigeria, he's not American, he's a community organizer [or any other dog-whistle bullshit]" to a group of rabid racists

I can go on and on. Fuck, I went to a Halloween party in New York fucking City last month and dressed as a member of Run DMC and 3 white girls (separately) asked if I was a thug. You don't think that fear is constantly being taught? You're sure as hell not born with it.

TM

You'd think it should be easier for white folks to realize what they're being taught than black folks. Shows how blind we are to the built-in biases.

Some of my favorites are the "bad neighborhood" that you're told not to to go near, which often redlines half a city as places whites shouldn't go, the "where is he from" question that really means, is he black, one you highlighted, the "don't dress like a thug" meaning, dress like a white boy, etc.

Any time people are segregated fear is taught of the other group in a million little ways. Segregation and stereotypes are two of the biggest weapons.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?

How, exactly, were white people "taught" to fear black people? Actually curious not snarky.

I don't know about you, but I was taught from a very young age not to go to certain neighborhoods because I wouldn't be welcome there. Their kind wasn't very hospitable to us crackers. Whenever we went to a Hawks game, back when they still played at the Amphitheatre, it was explained to me that the area around the stadium looked like a bombed-out area of Fallujah because the Blacks rioted and burned down the buildings, and nobody was going to rebuild there because "they" just didn't respect property.

The thing about this that you should find most disturbing is that my parents were both McCarthy liberals who liked my dentist because he used to throw cocktail parties where he invited Black Panthers.

Of course, you are too young to remember the Blacksploitation films of the 70s, in which Richard Roundtree and James Brown were killers, drug dealers, pimps, etc., but it was cool because that was the "culture" in the places where the Dark people lived.