I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

You know I'm neither sexist nor xenophobic nor racist.

I do? You're a white American male. You're almost certainly a little sexist and racist. We all are.

I'll give you a pass on the xenophobia though.

Yet you flagged me here, and I think the reason you did so is twofold:

I flagged you because a lot of the shit thrown at Hillary is gendered, whether consciously or not. Why is that hard to admit?

The second thing's important because a good bit of it is causing the nauseating backlash we see embodied in Trump. The more people see misogyny in everything, discrimination everywhere, and rail against things like "microaggressions," the more Trumpkins return the fire with truly offensive responses.

This is bullshit victim blaming. It's literally, "stop standing up for your rights or you're going to make someone bad take them away."

But throwing around accusations of misogyny, racism, xenophobia too frequently has a "boy who cried wolf" effect.

Honestly, I do not think there is such a thing as "too frequently" when it comes to misogyny and racism, which are everywhere.

Things like Ferguson and criminal justice reform - serious shit that needs to be addressed - are forgotten, or attacked by the Right (and Middle) as part of a childish "left wing agenda."

As if they won't be anyway?

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

The more people...rail against things like "microaggressions," the more Trumpkins return the fire with truly offensive responses.

Look, I get that we're at one of these "inflection points" where everybody's a victim, and everybody else has "privilege," etc.

A lot of your post is bullshit, but this little string right here makes me sick.

TM

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Right. I've burned about 100,000 characters insulting Ted Cruz and Trump. But it's clear my insulting of Hillary is misogyny.

You're being a cultural Timmy here, and a Trump enabler. You know I'm neither sexist nor xenophobic nor racist. We've known each other here quite long enough to establish that. And I know you're not really a "hall monitor" type on these sorts of issues. Yet you flagged me here, and I think the reason you did so is twofold:

1. Score points. It was an easy shot. Fair enough.
2. Because you've fallen a bit into the silly use of all the new "victim language" being thrown around in recent years.

The second thing's important because a good bit of it is causing the nauseating backlash we see embodied in Trump. The more people see misogyny in everything, discrimination everywhere, and rail against things like "microaggressions," the more Trumpkins return the fire with truly offensive responses.

Look, I get that we're at one of these "inflection points" where everybody's a victim, and everybody else has "privilege," etc. These cycles come around every now and again. But throwing around accusations of misogyny, racism, xenophobia too frequently has a "boy who cried wolf" effect. Things like Ferguson and criminal justice reform - serious shit that needs to be addressed - are forgotten, or attacked by the Right (and Middle) as part of a childish "left wing agenda."

Not every nasty comment is sexist, or racist, or xenophobic. And the funniest shit usually walks a fine line with being offensive, or truly stinging the target. Lighten up, and train your fire on the targets worthy of it.

You're criticizing someone for scoring points here?!??! How long have you been here? Did you come here on that short bus Hank is always remembering so fondly?

Over the weekend we were out with family in the bucolic People's Republic of Western Massachusetts, where they would elect Bernie Commissar in a second, and we mixed it up with some Berners, all of whom were white males (ranging in age from 21 to 65). I spoke too much (yeah, big surprise), and made the point that I really didn't give a shit if Hillary courted the Berners, since I thought winning or losing the election was going to depend more on her core constituency, especially minorities and women, in swing states, than Bernie's core in blue states. My wife indicated that she agreed, and that she thought sexism ran deep enough in the country so that it would be a lot harder to sway men to Hillary than women, even among so-called progressives.

The adamant older Berners left the conversation and were in the other room complaining that my wife, the only woman in the discussion, was "monopolizing" the conversation. She was not, she just had the temerity to speak and criticize the self-righteous little demographic they were a part of (something I did too).

I'm not calling you out for misogyny or sexism on these boards, because here we let it fly and a lot of stuff is said tongue in cheek etc. But there is just going to be a shitload of this bullshit between now and November out in the world, and I intend to complain very loudly and very long about it. And if it turns off a pack of white men who don't like women expressing a view, fuck 'em. And if you want to complain that you don't like people pointing out privilege or what have you, or think I'm being a "cultural timmie (not a bad phrase, by the way)", well, fuck you too.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

I do? You're a white American male. You're almost certainly a little sexist and racist. We all are.

That's absurd, absolutist reasoning. Have I had a racist or sexist thought in my life? Of course. Does that mean I am a "little bit" racist or sexist? No.

I'll give you a pass on the xenophobia though.

Under that reasoning, you cannot do so. I have had a xenophobic thought in my life as well.

I flagged you because a lot of the shit thrown at Hillary is gendered, whether consciously or not. Why is that hard to admit?

Of course it's gendered. How could it not be? She's a woman. Whatever I criticize about her will be a criticism of a woman, as she is a woman. Am I sexist for making fun of Trump's little hands? Or Rubio's platform boots? No.

This is bullshit victim blaming. It's literally, "stop standing up for your rights or you're going to make someone bad take them away."

I am victim blaming. And true victims of things like Ferguson or our court system should be pretty pissed off when "victims" of campus "microaggressions" or silly pundits talking about how people need to check their "privilege" give the Right wing talking points against the very real and significant claims of people in places like Ferguson. "Black Lives Matter" has a very serious point. People are being killed by truly racist elements in law enforcement. They are actual victims. But the Right Wing is lumping them all in with the rest of the McVictims running around claiming every slight is sexism, racism, or xenophobia.

True victimhood is a serious thing. If everybody's a victim, soon enough, no one's a victim. And in case you didn't notice, that's the Right Wing's favorite talking point.

Honestly, I do not think there is such a thing as "too frequently" when it comes to misogyny and racism, which are everywhere.

I don't know if you're right or wrong there. But in terms of impact, the more you say a thing, the more you desensitize people to it. Things like Ferguson should be Chinese walled in the public discourse from lesser alleged victimizations. When I hear people lumping criminal justice reform in with complaints like the lack of government subsidized child day care, it's hard not to stop and say, "Hey. Wait a minute. One of these things is very much unlike the other."

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

A lot of your post is bullshit, but this little string right here makes me sick.

TM

I'll be the first person to tell anybody claiming the criminal justice system is fair and non-biased he has his head up his ass. Talk to me about checking my privilege, or how people need "safe spaces," and I'm ordering another, smiling, and moving along.

You can assume I'm 1:1 with Bill Maher for purposes of every discussion like this.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

You're criticizing someone for scoring points here?!??! How long have you been here? Did you come here on that short bus Hank is always remembering so fondly?

Over the weekend we were out with family in the bucolic People's Republic of Western Massachusetts, where they would elect Bernie Commissar in a second, and we mixed it up with some Berners, all of whom were white males (ranging in age from 21 to 65). I spoke too much (yeah, big surprise), and made the point that I really didn't give a shit if Hillary courted the Berners, since I thought winning or losing the election was going to depend more on her core constituency, especially minorities and women, in swing states, than Bernie's core in blue states. My wife indicated that she agreed, and that she thought sexism ran deep enough in the country so that it would be a lot harder to sway men to Hillary than women, even among so-called progressives.

The adamant older Berners left the conversation and were in the other room complaining that my wife, the only woman in the discussion, was "monopolizing" the conversation. She was not, she just had the temerity to speak and criticize the self-righteous little demographic they were a part of (something I did too).

I'm not calling you out for misogyny or sexism on these boards, because here we let it fly and a lot of stuff is said tongue in cheek etc. But there is just going to be a shitload of this bullshit between now and November out in the world, and I intend to complain very loudly and very long about it. And if it turns off a pack of white men who don't like women expressing a view, fuck 'em. And if you want to complain that you don't like people pointing out privilege or what have you, or think I'm being a "cultural timmie (not a bad phrase, by the way)", well, fuck you too.

Exactly. If you pull out the "You're a misogynist" card, the slapback can only be, "You're being a cultural Timmie." Where's that conversation go? Nowhere.

This is part of why I wrote what I wrote. I'm "blamed" out. These conversations filled with endless accusations and allegations are irritating. You can literally see the political marketers' Bernays-like brainwashing in action. Everybody's pitted against one another - warring tribes. And none of the serious problems are being seriously addressed.

Indignation's trading at an all time low. We've more of it around than natural gas. The system's architecture for keeping the status quo humming along is sound.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Chinese walled

this is xenophobic you know?

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

That's absurd, absolutist reasoning. Have I had a racist or sexist thought in my life? Of course. Does that mean I am a "little bit" racist or sexist?

Of course it does.

Look, every time we talk about these subjects, it becomes embarrassingly clear that you have very weak grasp of what racism (and perhaps sexism) means. You want to define it down to "actively hates black people." That's racism, but only a tiny sliver of it.

Seriously, go read Between the World and Me and actually listen.

Or Rubio's platform boots? No.

No, that's just your homophobic core showing through

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Look, every time we talk about these subjects, it becomes embarrassingly clear that you have very weak grasp of what racism (and perhaps sexism) means. You want to define it down to "actively hates black people." That's racism, but only a tiny sliver of it.

I don't think I define it that narrowly. But yes -- I clearly set the barrier a lot higher than you do. Neither of us, however, may claim the final definition of the thing. Nor may this board. There are endless opinions about where it starts.

Seriously, go read Between the World and Me and actually listen.

He's a great writer, and I've read a bunch of his stuff, but again, Coates may not claim his is the final definition of where racism starts. Actually, no single person, however well informed he might be, can make that claim.

No, that's just your homophobic core showing through

I'll happily take an absolute position on male platform boots. If they're over two inches and you aren't in Kiss, rethink.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

this is xenophobic you know?

Joke, but you know -- somewhere this has been earnestly suggested. Eyes rolled, people politely switched the subject, and what desperately needed to be said wasn't:

"Miriam, don't you have organic vegetable burritos to be selling outside the university bookstore?"

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

He's a great writer, and I've read a bunch of his stuff, but again, Coates may not claim his is the final definition of where racism starts. Actually, no single person, however well informed he might be, can make that claim.

I'm not asking that you adopt whatever definition he puts forth (if he even does). I'm asking you to listen to what he has to say about his experiences and perceptions.

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I'll happily take an absolute position on male platform boots. If they're over two inches and you aren't in Kiss, rethink.

Underappreciated dead David Bowie says "Lick me, gonzo boy."

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I am victim blaming. And true victims of things like Ferguson or our court system should be pretty pissed off when "victims" of campus "microaggressions" or silly pundits talking about how people need to check their "privilege" give the Right wing talking points against the very real and significant claims of people in places like Ferguson. "Black Lives Matter" has a very serious point. People are being killed by truly racist elements in law enforcement. They are actual victims. But the Right Wing is lumping them all in with the rest of the McVictims running around claiming every slight is sexism, racism, or xenophobia.

True victimhood is a serious thing. If everybody's a victim, soon enough, no one's a victim. And in case you didn't notice, that's the Right Wing's favorite talking point.

I don't know if you're right or wrong there. But in terms of impact, the more you say a thing, the more you desensitize people to it. Things like Ferguson should be Chinese walled in the public discourse from lesser alleged victimizations. When I hear people lumping criminal justice reform in with complaints like the lack of government subsidized child day care, it's hard not to stop and say, "Hey. Wait a minute. One of these things is very much unlike the other."

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I'll be the first person to tell anybody claiming the criminal justice system is fair and non-biased he has his head up his ass. Talk to me about checking my privilege, or how people need "safe spaces," and I'm ordering another, smiling, and moving along.

You can assume I'm 1:1 with Bill Maher for purposes of every discussion like this.

Here's the thing on this topic...and I'll say it knowing full well you're not going to hear it (whether it's intentional or not, I'll let you decide):

Bill Maher is guilty of this and, since you're 1:1 with him on this, so are you.

1. The idea that people who suffer from relatively less important unequal and unfair treatment--relative to life-threatening issues like police brutality and the existence of police black sites, etc.--should stop their belly-achin' is fucking ridiculous. It's the same as when I hear people tell me that successful blacks should stop complaining because they have it good when compared to those who are truly suffering. And I hear this shit constantly (e.g., "I'm sick of these black millionaire actors complaining about the lack of roles/nominations/equal treatment in pay. Black people are dying in the streets!" or "Hey, Thurgreed, you have it good. You're a partner at an international law firm. No one wants to hear about your lack of access to clients/leadership positions at the firm/equal treatment in pay! Most black people don't make anywhere near what you do!").
   
   This type of shit is infuriating. And minorities have been hearing it for centuries at every level of "achievement." House slaves should stop complaining, they have it good, compared to field slaves. Free blacks should stop complaining because at least they're not slaves. Blacks should stop complaining about separate facilities since it wasn't that long ago they weren't allowed anywhere. Blacks should stop complaining about poor job/education/living conditions, things are getting better. On and on and on.
   
   Why should anyone at any level settle for less than they deserve because there are bigger problems in the world? It's the most illogical, bullshit, misdirection to keep things the way they are for as long as possible by those who benefit-tactic going. And I see it a lot. Don't be that jackass.
   
2. You have bought in completely to the narrative pushed by small-minded assholes who can't be bothered to treat people with respect and therefore actively lump in the ridiculous instances of the "PC police gone wild" with all other legitimate instances of discrimination so that they can shoo it all away.
   
   The prominence of stories of people who are so far past the extreme on the PC spectrum is fun to read about, but holy shit. Comedians not being able to make borderline jokes on campus is stupid and wrong, but the fact that I read about that and stories of PC police shutting down some professor who just wants kids to be allowed to make offensive Halloween costume mistakes <sniff.> all the damn time and then have to listen to someone talk about that stuff like the inconvenience of either of those things amounts to an out-of-control PC world is fucking ridiculous.
   
3. The ridicule of microaggressions is something only people who generally don't give a shit about how people expect to be treated engage in. I went to a small liberal arts school in the Midwest. I was one of maybe 50 black people on a campus of 2,000. And let me tell you something, microaggressions (although we didn't have a word for it back then) is fucking real and it's tiring. Trust me. To this day, where I am one of two black people at a ~200 person firm, having to navigate an environment designed by and for white people is exhausting. The microaggressions I experience are real and they wear on you. Just because I don't complain to you about them doesn't mean they don't exist. So when you hear about them, why not listen and think about what you might do to recognize when you're participating rather than bitch about something else that's too PC.
   
   Anyone who shuts off because they've heard the buzzword too often and thinks it's boring or annoying having to listen to people complain about it needs some perspective. And quite often, it's these assholes who can't fucking deal and throw the biggest fits if they believe they've been overlooked or slighted somehow. It's just amazing.

TM

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I'm "blamed" out. These conversations filled with endless accusations and allegations are irritating.

I feel so very bad for you. It must be horrible.

TM

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I feel so very bad for you. It must be horrible.

TM

You'll never know what it is like when people look at you and think "he only got where is he because he is white" or when you're in the middle of a presentation and someone pokes you in the belly and says "nice spare tire, cutie".