Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Adder

There's yer problem.

That was just too easy. I had to use it.

And I loved the movie.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I'm not not supporting her. But at this point, it's time to move on. And we need to focus on future leadership* of the Party.

TM

*Yates-Schiff 2020!

I am really impressed by a lot of the Democratic bench right now, there's not enough talk about it. I see a ton of people, Yates and Shiff definitely among them but many others too, distinguishing themselves right now.

My favorite one to cite to really piss of the right is Maxine Walters. She is getting deep under their skin. Suggest her to your Trump friends some time and watch them go into meltdown mode.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

My favorite one to cite to really piss off the right is Maxine Walters. She is getting deep under their skin. Suggest her to your Trump friends some time and watch them go into meltdown mode.

Oh, don't be like that.

I would like to understand how a polarized society grows less polarized. I'm not seeing it.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I would like to understand how a polarized society grows less polarized. I'm not seeing it.

I'm sorry, but I'm sick of this shit.

I am a reasonable person. I disagree with a lot of what conservatives believe. I have had many discussions with countless Republicans who all seem sane in disagreement. None of them believe in anything Trump stands for (except deep and wide tax cuts). But the fact that so many of them voted for him knowing how hateful, stupid, and small-minded he is in order to line their pockets makes me wonder what the point of such discussions is. Those are the reasonable Republicans. I'm open to discussing how to interact with them.

The lunatics who are full-on Trumpeteers are completely and irretrievably insufferable. There is no connection to reality. They don't give a fuck about anyone who isn't them or who closely resembles them. Their arguments are based on fantasy and they are completely ignorant. These are the people who are polarizing this country. Thirty five percent of this country is incurably racist and ignorant. They make up the Republican base and you can talk until you're blue in the face, but they are not worth reaching out to.

If you want this country to grow less polarized, Democrats need to win big in 2018 and 2020, redraw districts so that these gerrymandered Republican districts are gone and destroy all types of voter suppression (de jure and de facto) so Republicans can run reasonable people.

That way the 60-65% of this country that is interested in having a functioning government and who want to invest in its future can have an actual debate about how that gets done. The remainder can pound all the fucking sand.

TM

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I'm sorry, but I'm sick of this shit.

I am a reasonable person. I disagree with a lot of what conservatives believe. I have had many discussions with countless Republicans who all seem sane in disagreement. None of them believe in anything Trump stands for (except deep and wide tax cuts). But the fact that so many of them voted for him knowing how hateful, stupid, and small-minded he is in order to line their pockets makes me wonder what the point of such discussions is. Those are the reasonable Republicans. I'm open to discussing how to interact with them.

The lunatics who are full-on Trumpeteers are completely and irretrievably insufferable. There is no connection to reality. They don't give a fuck about anyone who isn't them or who closely resembles them. Their arguments are based on fantasy and they are completely ignorant. These are the people who are polarizing this country. Thirty five percent of this country is incurably racist and ignorant. They make up the Republican base and you can talk until you're blue in the face, but they are not worth reaching out to.

If you want this country to grow less polarized, Democrats need to win big in 2018 and 2020, redraw districts so that these gerrymandered Republican districts are gone and destroy all types of voter suppression (de jure and de facto) so Republicans can run reasonable people.

That way the 60-65% of this country that is interested in having a functioning government and who want to invest in its future can have an actual debate about how that gets done. The remainder can pound all the fucking sand.

TM

That solution would work for me, but I don't think it's realistic, for a couple of reasons. One is that Trump won 47% of the vote. I don't think there was enough vote suppression turnout to turn 35% of the country into 47% of the voters. Rather, I think a larger percentage of the country is Republican, and polarization drives Republicans who might have been more reasonable or willing to split tickets a generation ago to vote for, e.g., Trump. Also, Republicans are more likely to choose to vote. Two, there are so many checks in our system of checks and balances that it's hard to get real change if a substantial portion of the country opposes it.

Are our children doomed to live in a country this polarized? What de-escalates things?

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Oh, don't be like that.

I would like to understand how a polarized society grows less polarized. I'm not seeing it.

You mean short of war, which has been the traditional way to let off the steam?

Breaking mass hysteria is very hard. I think it may require that a bunch of the possessed be so thoroughly humiliated and discredited (as has been happening with some of the Fox assault squad, but not enough) that they crawl back under their rock. The example of this would be racists after the civil rights movement (in many cases the very people crawling out from under rocks today).

It does not happen by being all sweet and nice to morons and assholes. That is how it gets worse.

Note: a key to this happening is the reasonable Republicans and moderates, and there are many, growing just as frustrated with the idiocy of the wingers as others are, and you can see this happening in places. But Bill Kristol, for example, is not hosting be-kind-to-racists-teas. He is abusing them. He is ridiculing them. He is ripping them new orifices. And pissing them off by suggesting a smart angry black woman for President - I have no regrets!

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

You mean short of war, which has been the traditional way to let off the steam?

Breaking mass hysteria is very hard. I think it may require that a bunch of the possessed be so thoroughly humiliated and discredited (as has been happening with some of the Fox assault squad, but not enough) that they crawl back under their rock. The example of this would be racists after the civil rights movement (in many cases the very people crawling out from under rocks today).

It does not happen by being all sweet and nice to morons and assholes. That is how it gets worse.

Note: a key to this happening is the reasonable Republicans and moderates, and there are many, growing just as frustrated with the idiocy of the wingers as others are, and you can see this happening in places. But Bill Kristol, for example, is not hosting be-kind-to-racists-teas. He is abusing them. He is ridiculing them. He is ripping them new orifices. And pissing them off by suggesting a smart angry black woman for President - I have no regrets!

There is some distance between "being all sweet and nice to morons and assholes" and promoting Maxine Waters. The enemy of your enemy does not need to be your friend.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

There is some distance between "being all sweet and nice to morons and assholes" and promoting Maxine Waters. The enemy of your enemy does not need to be your friend.

You don't like Maxine?

I like Maxine. Sort of a Bernie Sanders for people who think. And she has fewer ethical lapses than he does.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

You don't like Maxine?

I like Maxine. Sort of a Bernie Sanders for people who think. And she has fewer ethical lapses than he does.

My recollection is that she has said and done some truly loopy things. To be honest, I don't recall what. Hey -- if you like Maxine, promote her because you like her, not because it pisses off other people.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

That solution would work for me, but I don't think it's realistic, for a couple of reasons. One is that Trump won 47% of the vote. I don't think there was enough vote suppression turnout to turn 35% of the country into 47% of the voters. Rather, I think a larger percentage of the country is Republican, and polarization drives Republicans who might have been more reasonable or willing to split tickets a generation ago to vote for, e.g., Trump. Also, Republicans are more likely to choose to vote. Two, there are so many checks in our system of checks and balances that it's hard to get real change if a substantial portion of the country opposes it.

Are our children doomed to live in a country this polarized? What de-escalates things?

I don't know that we're that far off. When I choose to accept that 35% of this country is completely irredeemable, that necessarily means we are to live with that kind of polarization. The trick is to get the other 15-20% of reasonable Republicans to engage beyond voting for even the current piece of shit in office in an effort to reduce their fucking taxes. The first step would be to undo the steps Republicans have taken to ensure that they are overrepresented at all levels of government (eg., gerrymandering, voter suppression, etc.).

If we are able to achieve this, we can go back to the time when that 35% can be told to fuck off.

But if that never happens, I'm not going to sit here wondering how to engage with those assholes because we're polarized. Fuck them anyway. We should be thinking about how to get more people to vote. That seems way easier than continually extending an olive branch to a group of people that despises anyone that doesn't live in their immediate vicinity and who doesn't look just like them.

We could spend $300 billion on restoring the coal industry's 200,000 jobs, subsidizing them, and forcing the country to use coal the way we do corn products and those assholes will regard those who live in cities and who benefit from infrastructure or mass transit investment with nothing but complete hate.

TM

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

That solution would work for me, but I don't think it's realistic, for a couple of reasons. One is that Trump won 47% of the vote. I don't think there was enough vote suppression turnout to turn 35% of the country into 47% of the voters. Rather, I think a larger percentage of the country is Republican, and polarization drives Republicans who might have been more reasonable or willing to split tickets a generation ago to vote for, e.g., Trump. Also, Republicans are more likely to choose to vote. Two, there are so many checks in our system of checks and balances that it's hard to get real change if a substantial portion of the country opposes it.

Are our children doomed to live in a country this polarized? What de-escalates things?

I know a lot of Rs who are quite dispirited and willing to compromise. The problem is the primary process. It's fucked up everything because moderates don't pay attention, and the crazies vote "pure" (read: batshit) candidates into the general.

I don't see anything changing much until the old, angry, xenophobic sector of the GOP dies off. There are some young Trump nuts out there, but not enough to win national elections. The Trump coalition relies on a lot of aging boomers. When they go, it goes. I think that process will take another ten years or so.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I don't know that we're that far off. When I choose to accept that 35% of this country is completely irredeemable, that necessarily means we are to live with that kind of polarization. The trick is to get the other 15-20% of reasonable Republicans to engage beyond voting for even the current piece of shit in office in an effort to reduce their fucking taxes. The first step would be to undo the steps Republicans have taken to ensure that they are overrepresented at all levels of government (eg., gerrymandering, voter suppression, etc.).

If we are able to achieve this, we can go back to the time when that 35% can be told to fuck off.

But if that never happens, I'm not going to sit here wondering how to engage with those assholes because we're polarized. Fuck them anyway. We should be thinking about how to get more people to vote. That seems way easier than continually extending an olive branch to a group of people that despises anyone that doesn't live in their immediate vicinity and who doesn't look just like them.

We could spend $300 billion on restoring the coal industry's 200,000 jobs, subsidizing them, and forcing the country to use coal the way we do corn products and those assholes will regard those who live in cities and who benefit from infrastructure or mass transit investment with nothing but complete hate.

TM

Your impediment to getting that 15% is high right now.

Many of those moderate Republicans don't like hearing things like, "But our taxes are still so low compared to Europe!" from the left.

The Ds also have stale ideas. They're much better on trade, and the stock market tends to do better under D administrations (even if that's probably because of what Rs did before Ds got control). But in terms of management policy, it's same old/same old: Govt apparatuses employed at huge admin cost to interfere in almost everything. (Credit Obama, who at least kept govt small, like a solid moderate R.)

Things like universal income are good ideas. Student debt forgiveness for millennials is a good idea.

Things like "moar taxes for more govt administration" and "moar taxes for education" (read: again, mostly administration) are bad ideas. When a person like me hears that, it translates to: "How about I just take ten grand into the backyard and burn it on the grill?"

But if the Ds argued, boldly, "Universal income would eliminate a lot of the wasteful govt administration we have by eradicating the middlemen and giving the cash directly to those who need it, who will then spend it in the economy and create growth!" I'm hearing, "That's a good long term investment that will help everyone. Sign me up."

You'd be surprised how many Rs would support that sort of thinking. But yes, I suspect most are concentrated on the coasts.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I don't know that we're that far off. When I choose to accept that 35% of this country is completely irredeemable, that necessarily means we are to live with that kind of polarization. The trick is to get the other 15-20% of reasonable Republicans to engage beyond voting for even the current piece of shit in office in an effort to reduce their fucking taxes. The first step would be to undo the steps Republicans have taken to ensure that they are overrepresented at all levels of government (eg., gerrymandering, voter suppression, etc.).

If we are able to achieve this, we can go back to the time when that 35% can be told to fuck off.

I think the true Trump supporters are more like 20-25% of the population. Or were. Trump's success in winning over other Republicans and Republican-like independents surprised me last year -- I didn't think he'd do it, but he did. Either they really hated Hillary, or it turns out that their tribal loyalties overrode common sense.

Either way, part of the reason those people are overrepresented is that they are likely to vote, and another part is that the Constitution and statutes give them more say (two Senators/state, state control over election laws, loss of voting rights for felons, etc.). I definitely think that Democrats should focus on trying to fix this, but that's a tall order.

But if that never happens, I'm not going to sit here wondering how to engage with those assholes because we're polarized. Fuck them anyway. We should be thinking about how to get more people to vote. That seems way easier than continually extending an olive branch to a group of people that despises anyone that doesn't live in their immediate vicinity and who doesn't look just like them.

We could spend $300 billion on restoring the coal industry's 200,000 jobs, subsidizing them, and forcing the country to use coal the way we do corn products and those assholes will regard those who live in cities and who benefit from infrastructure or mass transit investment with nothing but complete hate.

At ground level, I'm with you. But come up into the clouds with me for a moment. From up here, how do we think the polarization will get reversed? I see how the process feeds on itself, but I don't see what changes things.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I know a lot of Rs who are quite dispirited and willing to compromise.

If they weren't willing to vote for Hillary over Trump, they weren't really willing to compromise. And they weren't.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Your impediment to getting that 15% is high right now.

Many of those moderate Republicans don't like hearing things like, "But our taxes are still so low compared to Europe!" from the left.

The Ds also have stale ideas. They're much better on trade, and the stock market tends to do better under D administrations (even if that's probably because of what Rs did before Ds got control). But in terms of management policy, it's same old/same old: Govt apparatuses employed at huge admin cost to interfere in almost everything. (Credit Obama, who at least kept govt small, like a solid moderate R.)

Things like universal income are good ideas. Student debt forgiveness for millennials is a good idea.

Things like "moar taxes for more govt administration" and "moar taxes for education" (read: again, mostly administration) are bad ideas. When a person like me hears that, it translates to: "How about I just take ten grand into the backyard and burn it on the grill?"

But if the Ds argued, boldly, "Universal income would eliminate a lot of the wasteful govt administration we have by eradicating the middlemen and giving the cash directly to those who need it, who will then spend it in the economy and create growth!" I'm hearing, "That's a good long term investment that will help everyone. Sign me up."

You'd be surprised how many Rs would support that sort of thinking. But yes, I suspect most are concentrated on the coasts.

You are absolutely dreaming. People on the right are not, by and large, motivated by pragmatic arguments about what would work better. They are motivated by disagreement with and resentment of the left, of "coastal elites" and colored people. They don't mind wasteful government administration if the waste is going to people like them. If Democrats used your lines and threaten to win elections with them, so-called moderate Republicans would find new reasons to be skeptical.