Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I hear. I disagree. I don't think Hillary was always going to lose votes on the left (tens of thousands in MI, e.g.) from people who were willing to vote for a leftie in the Democratic primary and a third-party candidate in the general but not for her. Just as Bill Bradley ran against Gore in 2000, and tens of thousands of people then voted for Nader. I don't think Bernie's attacks on her for being a Wall Street stooge materially changed the numbers.

You have a different view. We'll never know who's right.

eta: Let me say something a little different. I had a bit of a problem with Bernie. I have much more of a problem with the lefties in the Democratic Party who have more passion for attacking the center-left than for organizing to win elections from Republicans. And also a problem with the enthusiasm that the Jonathan Chaits of the world show for hippie-bashing. Sometimes the priorities get seriously out of whack. I think contested primaries are good and make the party better, but there also is a point whether disagreement becomes discord and counterproductive.

I generally vote third party, but I'll make an exception here. I vote TM.

If you can seriously argue that Bernie did not cost Hillary significant Democratic and Independent votes, I have to wonder what history of the race you've been reading.

The whole crux of the Russia argument is that while Putin's scheme to hack voting systems directly may have failed, he nevertheless altered sentiment regarding Hillary with his relentless DNC leaks. Almost all of the resonant leaks were aimed at one issue: Hillary and the DNC screwing over Bernie.

To his credit, Bernie didn't run with that stuff. But he didn't have to. That, plus his relentless attacks on Wall Street and her Goldman speeches (recall his demanding transcripts?) peeled off a ton of otherwise Hillary voters. It also cost her a ton of Bernie voters who otherwise would've grudgingly voted for her when he left the race.

Decades from now, history will write Trump a lucky fool, and Bernie a Hillary killer.