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Old 12-07-2017, 03:49 PM   #3241
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
I couldn't agree with this article more. Democrats are holding themselves to a standard that doesn't exist outside of their bubble. The Franken allegations are shitty. But he's actually worked in the Senate to improve things for women. Shouldn't there be a measure of punishment that doesn't amount to removing a voice who has proven to be on the side of women so that we can maintain moral superiority over a party that doesn't give a fuck about morality at all? Are we trying to lure the assholes who voted for a man for the most powerful office in the world despite hearing him admit in his own words to assaulting women with that moral superiority?

Or should we understand that there are degrees of misbehavior, find an appropriate punishment, hold that person responsible for their actions, and keep those who have shown they are willing to actually fight for women in a position to continue that work? We're trying to defend against right wing assholes who want to conflate Moore with Franken to score political points with people who can't tell the fucking difference and won't vote for a Democrat no matter how "clean" we make the party?

Sebby is right. This shit is ridiculous.

TM
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Old 12-07-2017, 04:00 PM   #3242
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This is the type of garbage that we're dealing with

Everything this woman says in this interview is horseshit. People whose vote tracks this woman's thought process (whether genuine or intentionally disingenuous) cannot be won over. They are fucking morons. We need to stop trying to figure them out and roll directly the fuck over them.

http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2...ues-sot-ac.cnn

TM
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Old 12-07-2017, 04:04 PM   #3243
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
Or should we understand that there are degrees of misbehavior, find an appropriate punishment, hold that person responsible for their actions, and keep those who have shown they are willing to actually fight for women in a position to continue that work?
We were doing that when it was one allegation. It became unsustainable when it was another allegation every week, especially when you factor in the assumption that there were likely to be more. Seems like he's just low-grade handsy. How do the Dems get anything, even basic messaging, done when there's another staffer or constituent saying he grabbed them every few days?

Resignation isn't really punishment. It's stopping the political bleeding.
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Old 12-07-2017, 04:22 PM   #3244
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

There were a bunch of people on the left who acted like Mitt Romney was literally Hitler for the binders full of women thing. He managed to advance women without grabbing their asses and didn't get any credit for that. Cry me another river about Franken being held to an unreasonable standard. And it's so great that 3 weeks ago several Democrats decided that Bill Clinton probably should have resigned. When the GOP's "War on Women" is your major narrative, I don't think it's unfair to be held to a higher standard.

My description of the Conyers III situation was in no way misleading, and I was aware of the exact same facts you were. But how about we all agree to pick candidates that don't attempt to rape children, or sexually harass their staff, *or* get in violent domestic disputes? Is that too much to ask? Too high a standard?

I left the GOP and literally burned my voter registration card 4 months before the Access Hollywood tape came out, and gave it my all to try to defeat Trump in the primaries and at the convention (note that Cruz was not one of my exceptions from the garbage people of the GOP). I don't think you'll find me anywhere arguing that Trump and Moore are worthy of any public office.
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Old 12-07-2017, 04:43 PM   #3245
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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We aren't going to get the GOP to take these issues seriously by ignoring them ourselves. We just aren't. The world in which Conyers and Franken stay in fight is a world in which the pussy grabber in chief is empowered to do the same.
Let me fix that for you:

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We aren't going to get the GOP to take these issues seriously.
It's nice to think that we are somehow empowering Trump, but that's false. He was empowered by the people who voted for him last November, and he is enabled by Republicans on the Hill who don't want to stand up to him and who are happy to take what they can get in return. Your sentiments function as a sort of placebo lollypop that you can suck on for a little while to make yourself feel better. Once it's gone, Trump is just as "empowered".
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Old 12-07-2017, 04:45 PM   #3246
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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There were a bunch of people on the left who acted like Mitt Romney was literally Hitler for the binders full of women thing.
I missed that. Can you show me one?

eta: Romney's "binders of women" was like Clinton's "deplorable" -- a faux pas because each said something essentially true, but in an awkward way politically, and was then attacked more for inauthenticity and having a tin ear than for being wrong.
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Old 12-07-2017, 04:57 PM   #3247
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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We were doing that when it was one allegation. It became unsustainable when it was another allegation every week, especially when you factor in the assumption that there were likely to be more. Seems like he's just low-grade handsy. How do the Dems get anything, even basic messaging, done when there's another staffer or constituent saying he grabbed them every few days?

Resignation isn't really punishment. It's stopping the political bleeding.
It’s a grossly disproportionate punishment for what Franken did. It’s intellectually lazy and knee jerk.

I expect better from the Democrats. It can’t call itself the party of thinkers and then engage in a zero tolerance witch hunt and dispense preposterous summary punishment.

This was a moment to lead by example, to criticuze “pendulum” thinking that leads to political and policy overreactions.

Instead, they just removed an essential voice in the Senate. It’s maddeningly stupid.
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:00 PM   #3248
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
I missed that. Can you show me one?

eta: Romney's "binders of women" was like Clinton's "deplorable" -- a faux pas because each said something essentially true, but in an awkward way politically, and was then attacked more for inauthenticity and having a tin ear than for being wrong.
Here's Axelrod making a directly Nazi comparison: https://twitter.com/davidaxelrod/sta...46985970302976


See also : https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.ce695ca34d8f

It's a shame when you blow all of your "Republicans are Nazis" ammo at Mitt Romney, of all people.
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:02 PM   #3249
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Adder View Post
We were doing that when it was one allegation. It became unsustainable when it was another allegation every week, especially when you factor in the assumption that there were likely to be more. Seems like he's just low-grade handsy. How do the Dems get anything, even basic messaging, done when there's another staffer or constituent saying he grabbed them every few days?
This is the problem. What do you mean how do we get anything done? Are you talking from a practical standpoint or a political one?

Practically speaking, you carry out the investigation, unearth all of the allegations, address them, and decide on a punishment that is appropriate given the level and number of offenses. Are we saying that we can no longer function because there are 8 women who said he grabbed their ass? Can we not determine that he can be punished within the walls of the Senate (remove his name from bills, remove him from committees, have him attend sexual harassment training, whatever else is appropriate) and move on? He's a Senator who actually fucking cares about moving the ball forward on feminist issues. That shit is all out the window and he has to resign? I don't think so--at least not based on what I've heard of his behavior.

Politically speaking, I'll say this: Fuck the right. I don't give a fuck if Huckabee et al says Moore should stay if Franken stays. Those assholes are going to justify keeping Moore no matter what the left decides is appropriate. If we can't determine that what Franken has done is nowhere near what Moore or Trump has done, then we're fucking doomed. Because (and listen closely), anyone who voted for Trump after hearing him talk about assaulting women and seeing victim after victim be ignored is not going to run back to the Democrats because we have proven moral superiority by kicking Franken out.

If we can't get messaging out because Franken touched another butt 8 years ago, then let's just give up.

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Resignation isn't really punishment. It's stopping the political bleeding.
Bleeding from where? Who are we losing if Franken didn't retire and we actually put a thoughtful punishment in place? And who are we losing them to? If they leave to go to a party that fucking funds a child molester's bid for Senate, we had no shot at keeping them.

We run around like our heads are on fire trying to be all things to all people. If Conyers was exposing himself and touching people while in office, boot his ass. No problem with that. But if we can't determine that what Franken did, while somewhere on the same spectrum of wrong, doesn't deserve the proverbial death penalty, then we need to rethink what our goals as a party are.

If I were in charge of the party, I'd push for a proper investigation, figuring out a punishment that fits (and maybe the investigation reveals that he should go), carrying it out, and would have absolutely no problem pointing my finger at the other side and saying they're shitty people for getting behind Trump and Moore. That's not hypocrisy.

TM

Last edited by ThurgreedMarshall; 12-07-2017 at 05:18 PM..
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:07 PM   #3250
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
Let me fix that for you:



It's nice to think that we are somehow empowering Trump, but that's false. He was empowered by the people who voted for him last November, and he is enabled by Republicans on the Hill who don't want to stand up to him and who are happy to take what they can get in return. Your sentiments function as a sort of placebo lollypop that you can suck on for a little while to make yourself feel better. Once it's gone, Trump is just as "empowered".
It's almost like we didn't just lose a "there's no difference between the parties" election.

Also, your fix is nearly exactly what the next sentence you didn't quote says.
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:11 PM   #3251
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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It’s a grossly disproportionate punishment for what Franken did.
Again, it's not a punishment.

Quote:
[This was a moment to lead by example, to criticuze “pendulum” thinking that leads to political and policy overreactions.
Assuming for the sake of arguments these words actually mean anything, which they don't actually, how? What's the politically viable way to both take accusations seriously and not be repeatedly hammered over the head with your inaction on them, much less continue to be subjected to additional allegations?

Quote:
Instead, they just removed an essential voice in the Senate. It’s maddeningly stupid.
Nobody's voice is essential, and believing someone's is leads to sending party money to a pedophile.
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:11 PM   #3252
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
I couldn't agree with this article more. Democrats are holding themselves to a standard that doesn't exist outside of their bubble. The Franken allegations are shitty. But he's actually worked in the Senate to improve things for women. Shouldn't there be a measure of punishment that doesn't amount to removing a voice who has proven to be on the side of women so that we can maintain moral superiority over a party that doesn't give a fuck about morality at all? Are we trying to lure the assholes who voted for a man for the most powerful office in the world despite hearing him admit in his own words to assaulting women with that moral superiority?

Or should we understand that there are degrees of misbehavior, find an appropriate punishment, hold that person responsible for their actions, and keep those who have shown they are willing to actually fight for women in a position to continue that work? We're trying to defend against right wing assholes who want to conflate Moore with Franken to score political points with people who can't tell the fucking difference and won't vote for a Democrat no matter how "clean" we make the party?

Sebby is right. This shit is ridiculous.

TM
Dems have shit the bed. They had half a chance. Now every email is “give money.” Which I no longer do. Every dime I would give to a dem goes to a charity instead.
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:12 PM   #3253
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Re: This is the type of garbage that we're dealing with

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Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
Everything this woman says in this interview is horseshit. People whose vote tracks this woman's thought process (whether genuine or intentionally disingenuous) cannot be won over. They are fucking morons. We need to stop trying to figure them out and roll directly the fuck over them.

http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2...ues-sot-ac.cnn

TM
What is her point in even giving that interview? Is one Moore voter watching Anderson Cooper? And anyone who is undecided can't possibly be moved towards Moore by this nonsense, can they?
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:14 PM   #3254
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by SEC_Chick View Post
There were a bunch of people on the left who acted like Mitt Romney was literally Hitler for the binders full of women thing. He managed to advance women without grabbing their asses and didn't get any credit for that. Cry me another river about Franken being held to an unreasonable standard. And it's so great that 3 weeks ago several Democrats decided that Bill Clinton probably should have resigned. When the GOP's "War on Women" is your major narrative, I don't think it's unfair to be held to a higher standard.
You are very careful to craft your message with words like "a bunch of people on the left" and "several Democrats decided" and then you paint everyone on the left with whatever you've cherry picked from those people.

I don't remember anyone saying Romney should be disqualified because of his "binders full of women" quip. It was a ridiculous thing to say and he was taken to task for it--especially given the reality of what was behind the statement and his history of hiring women at his PE firm. You're trying to elevate it to something it's not. Purposely. Same with the Bill Clinton argument.

Quote:
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My description of the Conyers III situation was in no way misleading, and I was aware of the exact same facts you were. But how about we all agree to pick candidates that don't attempt to rape children, or sexually harass their staff, *or* get in violent domestic disputes? Is that too much to ask? Too high a standard?
Fuck off. If you were aware of the same exact facts and you chose not to mention both sides, then you're as full of shit as I initially thought you were.

"Don't get involved in domestic disputes?" Yeah. That's too high a standard. If someone is actually violent, I'm with you. If the cops get called because there is an argument and one person is defending themselves against the other who is actually armed, should they be precluded from having a political career? Of course not. You want everyone to read into it that he's some sort of abuser. I don't know him. Maybe he is. But based on the article I read about the incident, he could very well be a bigger victim than the woman he was arguing with. And no, saying that isn't the same as disagreeing with "We should believe women who come forward with claims of harassment."

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Originally Posted by SEC_Chick View Post
I left the GOP and literally burned my voter registration card 4 months before the Access Hollywood tape came out, and gave it my all to try to defeat Trump in the primaries and at the convention (note that Cruz was not one of my exceptions from the garbage people of the GOP). I don't think you'll find me anywhere arguing that Trump and Moore are worthy of any public office.
Nice try. No one is arguing that. You're arguing that both parties are awful because you can't stand the left. You are incapable of looking at the two sides and making a determination that on harassment, race, sexism, hypocrisy, whatever, the side you're still on,* voter registration card or not, is way fucking worse.

TM

*And maybe it's because you just hate the left, but what difference does that make?
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:15 PM   #3255
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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We run around like our heads are on fire trying to be all things to all people. If Conyers was exposing himself and touching people while in office, boot his ass. No problem with that. But if we can't determine that what Franken did, while somewhere on the same spectrum of wrong, doesn't deserve the proverbial death penalty, then we need to rethink what our goals as a party are.

If I were in charge of the party, I'd push for a proper investigation, figuring out a punishment that fits (and maybe the investigation reveals that he should go), carrying it out, and would have absolutely no problem pointing my finger at the other side and saying they're shitty people for getting behind Trump and Moore. That's not hypocrisy.

TM
I think it would be fair to do what you propose. I would actually have been ok with Franken staying until after the Ethics hearing were completed. Heck, Farenthold is using as a defense that he was cleared by the bipartisan House Ethics.

The thing that pisses me off most about Trump is how his defense of Moore is based on "Well, he denied it!" It's total BS.
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