Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Adder

That point is as soon as she feels he has done something coercive, disrpectful or non-consensual degrading. There's no point after she feels victimized where his privacy nevertheless wins out.

I really don't think you disagree with that although you seem to want to reserve your own judgment as to whether she was reasonable in feeling victimized. I get that sentiment - she could be truly off the wall - but I'm deeply wary of deciding that for anyone given that I have no experience at all of being in those shoes.

I don't really think his lack of awareness comes into it, exactly because the point here is that the change we are looking for is that he be more aware.

I'm sorry. Different people feel different things for different reasons. It would be great if everyone could pick up on (sometimes subtle) cues that what we're doing isn't okay. But that's not how it works. And if someone feels like behavior that is acceptable to almost everyone else is "coercive, disrespectful, or degrading" to them without signaling those feelings effectively, we have a problem.

His lack of awareness is definitely relevant. Again, I would love to hear Ansari's side, but even if we think that he was intentionally oblivious, this isn't always the case. Let's start with the caveat that everyone should be receptive to their partner's sexual needs and desires. Now, let's move on to reality. People want what they want. And every sexual encounter necessarily involves exploring what the other person is comfortable with (and don't turn that into something overly aggressive). If you only expected to be kissed, a caress of the breast is unwelcome. If you are okay with petting, undressing is aggressive. Etc.

Alert. This is a hypothetical: If all that happened in the story was Aziz cupping Grace's boob at the end of the night while they were kissing, she could describe it as an aggressive grope and could have a reporter write an article about an unwelcome and non-consensual assault. Aziz might describe it as getting shut down. Is she "truly off the wall?" Has he committed sexual assault? Should we be reading an article about that interaction?

You can't just throw up your hands and say, "I've never experienced this so the only thing that counts is how she felt about it." Sometimes that feeling is flat out wrong. Sometimes it's muddled by other signals sent. Sometimes it's unclear for other reasons. And your partner's ability to read those cues (understanding that blowing through clear cues is a problem) is most certainly relevant.

Originally Posted by Adder

Huh. I think it's exactly the opposite. I think it's that he doesn't expect privacy that he needs to be particularly careful to find someone who will afford him unexpected consideration.

I think this is absolutely ridiculous. But, if that's your opinion, that's your opinion.

Originally Posted by Adder

I guess I think that's what "expect" ⎌means.

I know people are fucking stupid. If I look for someone who I'm attracted to who is smart, I have an expectation that they be smart. I know people are cruel and selfish. If I find someone I like, I have an expectation that they be kind and generous. Stop being an obtuse jackass.

TM