We are all Slave now.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I learned from the master?

And at least we argued over an actual word. The biggest problem with "rape culture" is it can mean anything the speaker desires.

It is a challenge to use language precisely to capture a complex phenomenon that manifests in different ways. I agree with you that the meaning of the term is not self-evident. OTOH, people use the words "wind" and "weather" all the time, and those phenomena are pretty diverse too. It's hard to avoid the sense that you and Adder (eta: and TM) are actually disagreeing about what the world is like, or should be like, and that disagreement is playing out through semantics.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

That’s very much the same malleable definition I described. Ya think I don’t have fucking Wikipedia?

That “definition” is so broad it could mean anything. And what’s even more fucked up is the sort of people who use it would define it even more broadly than that.

McLanguage. To use your own term, fuckouttahere.

The word "Rapey" is one of the most useful words added to the language in the last decade or so. There are so many times I have walked into a place and just felt the danger there, or met a person and just been so creeped out by his interaction with women. Rapey is the feeling that there is a threat posed by a person's misogyny - it's not just academic.

When I worked in politics back in the 80s, there were certain elected officials I avoided allowing to be alone with my interns or junior staff - if State Rep X "invited" my 21 year old intern to dinner after a fundraiser (usually making it clear saying no would be politically frowned on for an ambitious young person), I invited myself along too. That's what rapey is.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

Am I on ignore? Did no one read how brave I was?

You were very brave. But next time maybe you could post a link to the full Moth version?

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

It is a challenge to use language precisely to capture a complex phenomenon that manifests in different ways. I agree with you that the meaning of the term is not self-evident. OTOH, people use the words "wind" and "weather" all the time, and those phenomena are pretty diverse too. It's hard to avoid the sense that you and Adder (eta: and TM) are actually disagreeing about what the world is like, or should be like, and that disagreement is playing out through semantics.

No. I agree there are certain archaic and loathsome attitudes toward sexual assault. I think there are loads of excellent, adult terms which capture each facet of it. Simplifying it down to the blunt “rape culture” is an attempt to hyperbolize, sensationalize, and generalize. It’s a college kid’s word. It’s not proper for serious conversation, and I think it actually inhibits serious conversation. You can’t accuse a person of being a part of rape culture and expect them to offer a measured reply.

It’s all about semantics. My gripe here is with shit language and oversimplification.

Social media and attendant short attention spans have caused this McLanguage. And it sucks. Makes people sound like idiots.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

The word "Rapey" is one of the most useful words added to the language in the last decade or so. There are so many times I have walked into a place and just felt the danger there, or met a person and just been so creeped out by his interaction with women. Rapey is the feeling that there is a threat posed by a person's misogyny - it's not just academic.

When I worked in politics back in the 80s, there were certain elected officials I avoided allowing to be alone with my interns or junior staff - if State Rep X "invited" my 21 year old intern to dinner after a fundraiser (usually making it clear saying no would be politically frowned on for an ambitious young person), I invited myself along too. That's what rapey is.

I’ll admit I’ve even used rapey. It captures exactly what you describe. But that’s a barb. Rape Culture is used like a credible, clinical term. It’s not. It’s a silly oversimplification meant to shock. It needs to go. But it wont because we’re in the age of feeling and short attention spans now. If you feel it’s a valid construct and helps you express yourself at Tweet length, gosh darnit, you can use it!

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I’ll admit I’ve even used rapey. It captures exactly what you describe. But that’s a barb. Rape Culture is used like a credible, clinical term. It’s not. It’s a silly oversimplification meant to shock. It needs to go. But it wont because we’re in the age of feeling and short attention spans now. If you feel it’s a valid construct and helps you express yourself at Tweet length, gosh darnit, you can use it!

I use rape culture all the time to describe behavior and norms that make it easier for assault and harassment of women to be normalized and dismissed. And even worse, promoted and admired.

For example, the scenario described in this reddit post I would describe as the perpetuation of rape culture.

This particular one strikes a nerve with me, because the same damned thing happened to me in fifth grade, but I didn't speak up because it's so fucking ingrained in the world I lived in at the time that I knew that there was no point. And I was socialized to think that having boobs meant you have to endure this sort of shit. Maybe I'm not serious in the way you want me to be, but I'm dead serious about observing this shit because I've had to navigate it my entire life.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

No. I agree there are certain archaic and loathsome attitudes toward sexual assault. I think there are loads of excellent, adult terms which capture each facet of it. Simplifying it down to the blunt “rape culture” is an attempt to hyperbolize, sensationalize, and generalize. It’s a college kid’s word. It’s not proper for serious conversation, and I think it actually inhibits serious conversation. You can’t accuse a person of being a part of rape culture and expect them to offer a measured reply.

It’s all about semantics. My gripe here is with shit language and oversimplification.

Social media and attendant short attention spans have caused this McLanguage. And it sucks. Makes people sound like idiots.

There are idiots all over, but you have taken a conversation that was about a real topic, and have turned into a non-conversation about semantics. You are refusing to talk about substance because, you say, anyone who uses certain terms categorically cannot be serious. If you want to have the conversation, suggest an alternative to "rape culture" that captures what Adder and TM are getting at, e.g., as you say archaic and loathsome attitudes toward sexual assault, without the hyperbole, generalization and sensationalism that you object to. If you can't do that, you are ducking the conversation and making a show of throwing out the bath water so that you can toss the baby too.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Serious people do not use that word.

You know you just dismissed basically every feminist scholar as unserious, right?

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

It’s a college kid’s word.

No, it's an academic feminist word. Given your already demonstrated ignorance, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt about knowing that, although maybe had you actually read the wikipedia link...

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Adder

You know you just dismissed basically every feminist scholar as unserious, right?

Use of that term may be serious on a campus. In fact, I have no doubt it is.

I once made the Dean's List on the back of a ritalin-induced paper comparing Milton's Satan to "Sympathy for the Devil."

What occurs in liberal arts has never struck me as particularly serious.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I’ll admit I’ve even used rapey. It captures exactly what you describe. But that’s a barb. Rape Culture is used like a credible, clinical term. It’s not. It’s a silly oversimplification meant to shock. It needs to go. But it wont because we’re in the age of feeling and short attention spans now. If you feel it’s a valid construct and helps you express yourself at Tweet length, gosh darnit, you can use it!

Rape culture is the term for that group of people who either don't recognize rapey when they see it or who try to deny all this rapeyness is a problem.

If you don't know what it is, watch Hatch, McConnell and Grassley today. They're doing a live demonstration.

[Not Bob]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Hot side hot, cold side cold? What'd they call that short-lived burger?

I believe you are referring to the McDLT (spree - commercial starring a Not Bald Jason Alexander).

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Rape culture is the term for that group of people who either don't recognize rapey when they see it or who try to deny all this rapeyness is a problem.

If you don't know what it is, watch Hatch, McConnell and Grassley today. They're doing a live demonstration.

I'd call that Rape Denial. Rape Culture has an affirmative bent to it, like they're engaging in rape or desiring there be more rape.

Maybe Rape Denialism. It's clunky, but it better captures the intended meaning.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan

I use rape culture all the time to describe behavior and norms that make it easier for assault and harassment of women to be normalized and dismissed. And even worse, promoted and admired.

For example, the scenario described in this reddit post I would describe as the perpetuation of rape culture.

This particular one strikes a nerve with me, because the same damned thing happened to me in fifth grade, but I didn't speak up because it's so fucking ingrained in the world I lived in at the time that I knew that there was no point. And I was socialized to think that having boobs meant you have to endure this sort of shit. Maybe I'm not serious in the way you want me to be, but I'm dead serious about observing this shit because I've had to navigate it my entire life.

That triggers a bunch of incidents I watched my daughters deal with over the last few years. Ugh. So much rape culture, not enough time to describe it all.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I'd call that Rape Denial. Rape Culture has an affirmative bent to it, like they're engaging in rape or desiring there be more rape.

Maybe Rape Denialism. It's clunky, but it better captures the intended meaning.

No its affirmative. They are working very hard at it sometimes. Watch the hearings.