We are all Slave now.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Is a handjob sex? How about a blowjob? Cunnilingus?

You say you had sex with someone, 99.9% of people assume intercourse. You say someone is part of Rape Culture, and 99.9% of people (not on campuses) think you're involved in or somehow associated with a horrible criminal act.

H.L. Mencken used a fountain pen like a paintbrush and you can use one like a stiletto, and the fact that some dope somewhere uses one like a crowbar -- or misunderstands what he or she reads -- doesn't mean you stop writing.

It's hard to find the right language to discuss complex patterns of human behavior. That makes it more important to try, not essential to stop.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Adder

Your identity - as a cis, straight white man - prevents others from living their lives the way they want to live them.

I'm sorry, I think this is nuts too. Sebby's identity (or yours, or mine) is not preventing anyone from living anything the way they way to live it.

Your presence, and the advantages you enjoy, causes others around you to have to adjust their behavior. Whether that's a person of color who knows they need to treat you with deference or a woman who does not know whether you will do her harm or a gay couple who does not know whether their existence will cause anger and violence from you.

If the things in the second sentence happen, it is not because of any individual's identity. It's because of a much thicker, more complicated set of causes, which are no less real for being thicker and more complicated.

Because your (our) station in life means that we can and do act without fear of consequences others face, our existents prevents other from "liv[ing] as [they] feel like living."

No.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I don't have feelings on this stuff. I don't take offense. I don't like dumb McWords. They annoy me. I hate corporate lingo, and I hate this sort of lingo. It suggests a failing in literacy.

If I understand you correctly, you object to this "sort of lingo" because it seems artificial to you,* which is to say that it does not reflect the reality you live in. Upon encountering it, you are unable to suspend disbelief.

* Or, if there's an echo in here, you object both to the use of artifice, and to the fact that it isn't executed seamlessly.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I'm sorry, I think this is nuts too. Sebby's identity (or yours, or mine) is not preventing anyone from living anything the way they way to live it.

i promised not to pick on adder, but saying 2 is not me calling him out?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

H.L. Mencken used a fountain pen like a paintbrush and you can use one like a stiletto, and the fact that some dope somewhere uses one like a crowbar -- or misunderstands what he or she reads -- doesn't mean you stop writing.

It's hard to find the right language to discuss complex patterns of human behavior. That makes it more important to try, not essential to stop.

I could not agree more. Sophomoric shorthand intended to simplify complex issues is an attempt to stop writing. It's an attempt to remove terms from the language and lump hundreds of unique concepts under soundbite friendly, catchy terms.

The letters of our alphabet can be organized into thousands of words that have discrete meanings. Twitterizing the language to blunt catch-alls works against the essential need to expand it.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

If I understand you correctly, you object to this "sort of lingo" because it seems artificial to you,* which is to say that it does not reflect the reality you live in. Upon encountering it, you are unable to suspend disbelief.

* Or, if there's an echo in here, you object both to the use of artifice, and to the fact that it isn't executed seamlessly.

No. I object to it because it dumbs down conversation. Rape denial, downplaying of it, and blaming of victims, are very real things. But there are hundreds of discrete reasons that people do those things. Some people do one of those things, some two, some all three, and they often do these things for a mix of reasons unique to each person guilty of these behaviors. To lump them all under the umbrella of "rape culture" eliminates the unique indictments and examinations that should be made and replaces them with a blunt catch-all accusation.

And let's be honest about why this word has become popular today. It is not intended to be a serious diagnosis. It is intended to operate as a shorthand accusation. It has bite. And it's designed to have bite. You hear it and you immediately think, "that's horrid." It allows the user to throw it into a conversation like a hand grenade. Instead of talking about the varieties of different ways people deny or downplay rape, you can call them all a part of "rape culture." Cazart! You've got everybody's attention.

But then when you look into the word, and you realize it swallows so many disparate concepts as to make it rather meaningless, you realize you've been duped, as you might be duped by a Madison Avenue advertising slogan. A collection of very serious issues has been pressed into a soundbite.

Use any words you like, but if I were speaking to a broad audience of people about such a topic, I'd use words like rape denial, and blaming the victim. And I'd call the people who are part of this undefinable "culture" rape and sexual assault apologists. These do the trick without any hint of simplification or sensationalism.

ETA: While we're at it, this one really, really needs to go: "My truth." Nobody has "his truth" or "her truth." There are facts, which are what objectively occurred. There are perceptions, which can differ, but generally dovetail on facts observed by the people perceiving events. But there are no "unique truths." This notion of "my truth" which I'm hearing a lot these days is in the same nuclear family as Kelly Anne Conway's "alternative facts."

On the left, it's usually "my truth," and it seems to claim that one's emotional view trumps facts. That seems mostly narcissism. On the right, it's usually offered as "the way I see things." ("Obama was not a socialist, and was not born in Kenya. Those allegations are simply untrue. I can show you documents proving them untrue." "I don't care what you show me. That's the way I see things.") That's naked self-delusion.

This shit needs to go. I won't even talk to a person using these phrases, and I think that should be the rule for all thinking people.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

No. I object to it because it dumbs down conversation. Rape denial, downplaying of it, and blaming of victims, are very real things. But there are hundreds of discrete reasons that people do those things. Some people do one of those things, some two, some all three, and they often do these things for a mix of reasons unique to each person guilty of these behaviors. To lump them all under the umbrella of "rape culture" eliminates the unique indictments and examinations that should be made and replaces them with a blunt catch-all accusation.

And let's be honest about why this word has become popular today. It is not intended to be a serious diagnosis. It is intended to operate as a shorthand accusation. It has bite. And it's designed to have bite. You hear it and you immediately think, "that's horrid." It allows the user to throw it into a conversation like a hand grenade. Instead of talking about the varieties of different ways people deny or downplay rape, you can call them all a part of "rape culture." Cazart! You've got everybody's attention.

But then when you look into the word, and you realize it swallows so many disparate concepts as to make it rather meaningless, you realize you've been duped, as you might be duped by a Madison Avenue advertising slogan. A collection of very serious issues has been pressed into a soundbite.

Use any words you like, but if I were speaking to a broad audience of people about such a topic, I'd use words like rape denial, and blaming the victim. And I'd call the people who are part of this undefinable "culture" rape and sexual assault apologists. These do the trick without any hint of simplification or sensationalism.

ETA: While we're at it, this one really, really needs to go: "My truth." Nobody has "his truth" or "her truth." There are facts, which are what objectively occurred. There are perceptions, which can differ, but generally dovetail on facts observed by the people perceiving events. But there are no "unique truths." This notion of "my truth" which I'm hearing a lot these days is in the same nuclear family as Kelly Anne Conway's "alternative facts."

On the left, it's usually "my truth," and it seems to claim that one's emotional view trumps facts. That seems mostly narcissism. On the right, it's usually offered as "the way I see things." ("Obama was not a socialist, and was not born in Kenya. Those allegations are simply untrue. I can show you documents proving them untrue." "I don't care what you show me. That's the way I see things.") That's naked self-delusion.

This shit needs to go. I won't even talk to a person using these phrases, and I think that should be the rule for all thinking people.

Sorry, bro, but we're in the middle of hurricane season for Rape Culture. You can't step outside without getting blown away by Rape Culture. Lindsey Graham is its patron saint, Trump it's leading light, and Bret Kavanaugh its handmaiden, and you can expect to hear Rape Culture a lot more.

Think of it this way, the market is speaking.

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

What the fuck is "marijuana culture"? What kind of unthinking moron would use that phrase, much less use it in a legal document. What the hell is it supposed to mean? Someone using THC oils to cope with the pain of cancer? Some blazed-out ding dong sitting on a couch with a honey bear bong snarfing Cheetos? Someone wearing hemp shorts? It only has meaning to adolescent douchebags on Twitter. If I were Musk, I would not even dignify this document with a response until the SEC agrees to scrub it of McLanguage.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

What the fuck is "marijuana culture"? What kind of unthinking moron would use that phrase, much less use it in a legal document. What the hell is it supposed to mean? Someone using THC oils to cope with the pain of cancer? Some blazed-out ding dong sitting on a couch with a honey bear bong snarfing Cheetos? Someone wearing hemp shorts? It only has meaning to adolescent douchebags on Twitter. If I were Musk, I would not even dignify this document with a response until the SEC agrees to scrub it of McLanguage.

What is "whiff culture?"

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

What is "whiff culture?"

2. He's lost a step.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Sorry, bro, but we're in the middle of hurricane season for Rape Culture. You can't step outside without getting blown away by Rape Culture. Lindsey Graham is its patron saint, Trump it's leading light, and Bret Kavanaugh its handmaiden, and you can expect to hear Rape Culture a lot more.

Think of it this way, the market is speaking.

I think I've been clear that the market is not always right. And on language, consider me a royalist. But your point is well taken, and you are right -- I am Don Quixote on this one. Particularly given what Jeff Flake just did.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Rape denial, downplaying of it, and blaming of victims, are very real things. But there are hundreds of discrete reasons that people do those things.

Except there are not. Mostly it's just misogyny, even if it manifests in a variety of ways.

But then when you look into the word

Had you even made a casual attempt to do so, you would stop repeating the silly assertion that "rape culture" is an accusation mostly hurled at people rather than a description of our, you know, culture.

[Replaced_Texan]

I am so angry.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Do you think you don’t live in your own head? I wouldn’t even know where to begin explaining how far your head is up your own ass.

At least the words I use while it's up there have definitions that I didn't completely pull out of my asshole and present them like they were tea and biscuits.

TM