Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

[Adder]

It's weird that Cohen testified (is testifying?) about the things he did and exactly none of it is a surprise.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

You're right. I spend an inordinate amount of time trying to understand these types of white people. And I'm failing.

TM

My hypothesis would be that when people's private racism is exposed to a wide audience, they do not use the moment to engage in some honest introspection and try to describe their inner lives with candor. They have to say something, so they say what they have heard other people say, much like you can always find the neighbor of a mild-mannered dude suddenly exposed as a serial murdered to say that the dude always seemed like a normal guy. And the media likes to regurgitate familiar narratives, so they will run with those quotes even if it takes multiple interviews to get them.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

My hypothesis would be that when people's private racism is exposed to a wide audience, they do not use the moment to engage in some honest introspection and try to describe their inner lives with candor. They have to say something, so they say what they have heard other people say, much like you can always find the neighbor of a mild-mannered dude suddenly exposed as a serial murdered to say that the dude always seemed like a normal guy. And the media likes to regurgitate familiar narratives, so they will run with those quotes even if it takes multiple interviews to get them.

I expect there is a bit of "deer in the headlights" initially too. It might be interesting to hear how such a moment did/didn't change how people think/act, but a year or more down the road.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Adder

It's weird that Cohen testified (is testifying?) about the things he did and exactly none of it is a surprise.

Sounds like they have Trump on the hush money, and Cohen heard Trump on phone with Stone re: Assange and Wiki dump.

Most of this is already known. So it's not going to be terribly exciting.

I want to hear his proof Trump is a racist. I was expecting to hear some seriously ugly quotes there.

I also want to hear about Trump's real net worth. I want some numbers. Because you know, that's the only thing Trump really cares about here. Michael will make everyone think I'm not a billionaire!

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Adder

It's weird that Cohen testified (is testifying?) about the things he did and exactly none of it is a surprise.

I am laughing at @popehat's tweets about the GOP efforts to undermine Cohen.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

My hypothesis would be that when people's private racism is exposed to a wide audience, they do not use the moment to engage in some honest introspection and try to describe their inner lives with candor. They have to say something, so they say what they have heard other people say, much like you can always find the neighbor of a mild-mannered dude suddenly exposed as a serial murdered to say that the dude always seemed like a normal guy. And the media likes to regurgitate familiar narratives, so they will run with those quotes even if it takes multiple interviews to get them.

Maybe. But let me tell you a story.

I was out at a bar my friend used to own. I knew some of the regulars. Your typical group of drinkers at an average-ish bar. Colorful people, mostly alcoholic, but mostly nice guys.

One of them was fairly funny--loud, gregarious, fun. We would always chat when I came in. One time he was talking about how generous he was and argued with some dude who wouldn't buy a round. He said, "I said to this guy, 'Don't nigger, it!" I'd never heard that before and was very confused. He read that confusion on my face as anger and then started saying shit like, "No offense, it's just an expression," or some such bullshit. After a moment or two, it hit me and I was like, "Did you just say, 'Don't nigger it?'" I was done with him. Walked away without hitting him.

He was devastated. He kept trying to apologize. He asked my buddy to tell me he's not racist. He was obsessed with trying to convince me that his use of that word was meaningless. And he truly believed it, I think. In his mind, he isn't racist at all.

Now, you can argue that the fact that his obsession meant that he realized from the casual use of a slur that he actually is racist. But I don't think that's true.

I believe this type of thing happens all the time--I am just (and the subject of those types of slurs are just) usually not there to hear it.

So, you could be right. But I think (and I keep going back to the book White Fragility) that white people generally think of racists as Southerners who spend all their time spewing hate, wearing Nazi regalia, sic their dogs on blacks, etc. Good-bad binary. I'm not like that. I'm a good person. Therefore I cannot be racist. That disconnect allows them to say the type of shit she said (with a straight face) and mean it.

TM

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Maybe. But let me tell you a story.

I was out at a bar my friend used to own. I knew some of the regulars. Your typical group of drinkers at an average-ish bar. Colorful people, mostly alcoholic, but mostly nice guys.

One of them was fairly funny--loud, gregarious, fun. We would always chat when I came in. One time he was talking about how generous he was and argued with some dude who wouldn't buy a round. He said, "I said to this guy, 'Don't nigger, it!" I'd never heard that before and was very confused. He read that confusion on my face as anger and then started saying shit like, "No offense, it's just an expression," or some such bullshit. After a moment or two, it hit me and I was like, "Did you just say, 'Don't nigger it?'" I was done with him. Walked away without hitting him.

He was devastated. He kept trying to apologize. He asked my buddy to tell me he's not racist. He was obsessed with trying to convince me that his use of that word was meaningless. And he truly believed it, I think. In his mind, he isn't racist at all.

Now, you can argue that the fact that his obsession meant that he realized from the casual use of a slur that he actually is racist. But I don't think that's true.

I believe this type of thing happens all the time--I am just (and the subject of those types of slurs are just) usually not there to hear it.

So, you could be right. But I think (and I keep going back to the book White Fragility) that white people generally think of racists as Southerners who spend all their time spewing hate, wearing Nazi regalia, sic their dogs on blacks, etc. Good-bad binary. I'm not like that. I'm a good person. Therefore I cannot be racist. That disconnect allows them to say the type of shit she said (with a straight face) and mean it.

TM

Your bar guy is a different thing. He had the whole pool of people he offended right there and could have said something. Like if he had said, "shit, look I grew up with a lot of hate and bias pushed on me, and I fight it, but I still got a long way to go, sorry, I'm working on it," would you have felt better about him? Was there anything he could say?

Closest I have to this is hearing people say "jew them down," or some other slur. There are two types of people who say that- people who know Jewish people but still say it. That is a hater, apologize all you want, you're a shit. But once (at Graceland of all places) a family from hill fuck West Virginia asked me if I was going to Jew a gift shop clerk down (we were in the middle of a weird, but until then, fun conversation). I looked at them, and realized there were likely no Jewish people in their lives. Somehow it seemed less bad to me, like they were repeating a phrase they had always heard and had little idea why it was wrong and stupid.

Winding back to your bar guy if he had grown up with the phrase, but had no idea the word was this evil hateful thing (which is a null set of people) maybe there is a bit more of a pass?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Maybe. But let me tell you a story.

I was out at a bar my friend used to own. I knew some of the regulars. Your typical group of drinkers at an average-ish bar. Colorful people, mostly alcoholic, but mostly nice guys.

One of them was fairly funny--loud, gregarious, fun. We would always chat when I came in. One time he was talking about how generous he was and argued with some dude who wouldn't buy a round. He said, "I said to this guy, 'Don't nigger, it!" I'd never heard that before and was very confused. He read that confusion on my face as anger and then started saying shit like, "No offense, it's just an expression," or some such bullshit. After a moment or two, it hit me and I was like, "Did you just say, 'Don't nigger it?'" I was done with him. Walked away without hitting him.

He was devastated. He kept trying to apologize. He asked my buddy to tell me he's not racist. He was obsessed with trying to convince me that his use of that word was meaningless. And he truly believed it, I think. In his mind, he isn't racist at all.

Now, you can argue that the fact that his obsession meant that he realized from the casual use of a slur that he actually is racist. But I don't think that's true.

I believe this type of thing happens all the time--I am just (and the subject of those types of slurs are just) usually not there to hear it.

So, you could be right. But I think (and I keep going back to the book White Fragility) that white people generally think of racists as Southerners who spend all their time spewing hate, wearing Nazi regalia, sic their dogs on blacks, etc. Good-bad binary. I'm not like that. I'm a good person. Therefore I cannot be racist. That disconnect allows them to say the type of shit she said (with a straight face) and mean it.

TM

Your story is much more interesting, partly because it seems much more likely that your guy was telling the truth instead of posturing in contrition.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Seems like this an obvious point that I haven't heard anyone say:

Trump went to Vietnam to get as far away from Washington and Cohen's testimony as he could.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

Your bar guy is a different thing. He had the whole pool of people he offended right there and could have said something. Like if he had said, "shit, look I grew up with a lot of hate and bias pushed on me, and I fight it, but I still got a long way to go, sorry, I'm working on it," would you have felt better about him? Was there anything he could say?

Closest I have to this is hearing people say "jew them down," or some other slur. There are two types of people who say that- people who know Jewish people but still say it. That is a hater, apologize all you want, you're a shit. But once (at Graceland of all places) a family from hill fuck West Virginia asked me if I was going to Jew a gift shop clerk down (we were in the middle of a weird, but until then, fun conversation). I looked at them, and realized there were likely no Jewish people in their lives. Somehow it seemed less bad to me, like they were repeating a phrase they had always heard and had little idea why it was wrong and stupid.

Winding back to your bar guy if he had grown up with the phrase, but had no idea the word was this evil hateful thing (which is a null set of people) maybe there is a bit more of a pass?

I'm not sure what turn this conversation has taken based on what you wrote.

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Your story is much more interesting, partly because it seems much more likely that your guy was telling the truth instead of posturing in contrition.

I am offering the story to both of you as an example of what people will say in defense of themselves when it is clear that they are blatantly racist. Whether the story is interesting or different on the facts (as Hank points out) is beside my point.

White people who say the most blatantly racist shit will insist that they are not racist. And the reason why they do is because, for them (and all the white people who try to explain away racist shit by insisting that that isn't what they could have meant or they're a nice person or whatever), "racist" has a very specific meaning that doesn't actually exist in reality.

TM

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I'm not sure what turn this conversation has taken based on what you wrote.

I am offering the story to both of you as an example of what people will say in defense of themselves when it is clear that they are blatantly racist. Whether the story is interesting or different on the facts (as Hank points out) is beside my point.

White people who say the most blatantly racist shit will insist that they are not racist. And the reason why they do is because, for them (and all the white people who try to explain away racist shit by insisting that that isn't what they could have meant or they're a nice person or whatever), "racist" has a very specific meaning that doesn't actually exist in reality.

TM

I got all that.

The lady in Maryland, what she said in the bar is such that it is absurd for her to even be in denial- even given the Fragility thing. But I also think if a white guy like your bar guy had done that publicly it is natural to deny anything. The internet and the camera do not care. There is no growth there. If I were caught saying the word (and I have in my youth) and were interviewed about it I would go full Donald Trump. I might even try to hire Sarah Sanders to convince people I didn't say it. But I would still hope on my own I looked inward and tried to grow from the realization that I had some shit to learn. I think that is the true goal?

But what I was asking was 2 things- the guy's slur to you, could he have recovered in your eyes? Shown some remorse? Okay if no possibility for you, but I was curious.

And I judge my anti-semite based upon who they are. I was asking if you do the same as to racists? Someone my dad's generation carried a whole bigger bag of racist shit than I do; Is more likely to use the phrase you mention. Doesn't mean he ain't a racist for using it, but the % of people who are racist hopefully drops each generation, so maybe an older guy gets a bit more understanding?

Is that a factor at all. Again, okay if you say nope.

And just to head off any misunderstanding, I'm not saying anyone in this thread is a good person who means well. Everyone on this thread (including me) is at least somewhat racist and should try to fix that shit.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I am offering the story to both of you as an example of what people will say in defense of themselves when it is clear that they are blatantly racist. Whether the story is interesting or different on the facts (as Hank points out) is beside my point.

White people who say the most blatantly racist shit will insist that they are not racist. And the reason why they do is because, for them (and all the white people who try to explain away racist shit by insisting that that isn't what they could have meant or they're a nice person or whatever), "racist" has a very specific meaning that doesn't actually exist in reality.

I hear you and agree with what you say here. Before, you were talking about the efforts you make to understand those people. I guess I was just saying that there is no point in making that investment when it's a news story about a public figure, like the one you posted, because people will just say whatever in that context -- it's a variety of public shaming ritual where people play their assigned parts. When I say your bar story is interesting, I mean that you're more likely to get some insight into what makes people tick out of it.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

I got all that.

The lady in Maryland, what she said in the bar is such that it is absurd for her to even be in denial- even given the Fragility thing. But I also think if a white guy like your bar guy had done that publicly it is natural to deny anything. The internet and the camera do not care. There is no growth there. If I were caught saying the word (and I have in my youth) and were interviewed about it I would go full Donald Trump. I might even try to hire Sarah Sanders to convince people I didn't say it. But I would still hope on my own I looked inward and tried to grow from the realization that I had some shit to learn. I think that is the true goal?

But what I was asking was 2 things- the guy's slur to you, could he have recovered in your eyes? Shown some remorse? Okay if no possibility for you, but I was curious.

And I judge my anti-semite based upon who they are. I was asking if you do the same as to racists? Someone my dad's generation carried a whole bigger bag of racist shit than I do; Is more likely to use the phrase you mention. Doesn't mean he ain't a racist for using it, but the % of people who are racist hopefully drops each generation, so maybe an older guy gets a bit more understanding?

Is that a factor at all. Again, okay if you say nope.

And just to head off any misunderstanding, I'm not saying anyone in this thread is a good person who means well. Everyone on this thread (including me) is at least somewhat racist and should try to fix that shit.

Perhaps use another threshold measurement: Is this person worth my time?

If you use those terms, what enlightened conversation are we likely to be having? I can listen to you as an amateur anthropologist and assess why you think as you do, ponder just how dumb or fucked up you are, but that's what? Five minutes of discussion? That "trip to the zoo" loses entertainment value quickly, even if you've a really dark sense of humor. See Homo Bigotus to the right, using anti-Semitic terms to ask the bartender to extend the drink special.

Life's too short to be bored in such a manner. Even if you get that cringe worthy "Larry David couldn't write something this uncomfortable" moment where you are amazed by the backwardness of the person speaking.

I say you needn't reach the issue of whether the person's racism may be somehow mitigated. The person's a dullard unworthy of your time. I've talked to enough dull people in the legal profession to last three lifetimes. Enduring one socially is pissing away precious minutes.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Seems like this an obvious point that I haven't heard anyone say:

Trump went to Vietnam to get as far away from Washington and Cohen's testimony as he could.

A rare wise decision by him. I listened to the highlights during a long trip yesterday and want that time, and those lost IQ points, back.

Cummings did an admirable job of keeping a dumpster fire at least superficially dignified. AOC did a good job of asking smart questions, coherently.

The remainder of the spectacle reminded me why I often think we should bring back a royalist system. The grandstanding, the bleating, and the pathetic subject of it all, our national imbecile of the moment... I imagine the Brits, fumbling through the shitshow of Brexit debates, feel a bit better about themselves today.

It was like watching the village drunkards interrogate the village idiot. Speeches, bromides, rambling asides, a criminal referral of a guy already going to jail by a Trump supporter... To what audience do these people think they're playing? The dimmest voter could spot the overheated drama that these people were trying to convey.

The interchange between Tlaib and Meadows was ludicrous. Cummings deserves accolades for killing it before it became a "did so/did not" self-righteous chest beating marathon.

Winners: AOC and Cummings. Losers: Anyone who doubted Congress is 90% shmucks you wouldn't trust to watch your pets.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

He was devastated. He kept trying to apologize. He asked my buddy to tell me he's not racist. He was obsessed with trying to convince me that his use of that word was meaningless. And he truly believed it, I think. In his mind, he isn't racist at all.

I think people use racists phrases without realizing how racist they are (e.g., jewed him down, gypped me, etc.), but I don't know how that could happen with a phrase that includes the n word.