Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I don’t think you have many compelling examples.

Jesus fucking Christ. You are only looking for examples of intentional, evil racism. He could list a thousand other things that do not fall into this category and you would either shoo them away or deny them.

I can tell you for a fucking fact that you have felt uncomfortable because a dark-skinned black man was walking toward you.

I am sure you have assumed someone of color was an employee when they were not.

I would bet a ton of money that you've been in a situation in which there has been a white person and a person of color and you assumed the white person was in charge.

Since none of us watch your every move we can't give you specific examples of what you do regularly that's racist. But going on the shit you post here (i.e., you think colorblindness is achievable and desirable), I think it's safe to say you, like everyone else, do racist shit. The point you need to get through your thick fucking skull is that unintentional racist shit constitutes racism too. It's just a different level. Jesus fucking Christ, man.

TM

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I could not possibly call you a racist for this incident, or anything like it. The proper description that fits is "Person who had a racist thought."

This gets to the meat of semantic and logical problems with loose and lazy use of the term, "racist." It cheaply trades in absolutes where an argument of degree is appropriate. Having a single racist thought, or a racist thought every four or five days, or when you're in a certain part of town, does not make you a racist. It makes you a person who's had some racist thoughts.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Odd example, but fitting... I was watching a Bond flick the other night. Gert Frobe, who most know as Goldfinger, was a Nazi for a few years in the 30s. He left the movement before the war and became a staunch liberal, living an admirable life. However, for a period of time far longer than any moment of racist fear you've had, Gert Frobe was a National Socialist. Does this mean that forever he is a Nazi?

Of course it does not. That's an absurd position to take. As absurd as the position that because one is born into a system, he is automatically guilty of the sins of that system. This is akin to original sin, and original sin is a silly religious fiction.

It's logically and semantically lazy and counterproductive to assert "everyone is racist." The accurate statement is, "everybody in the US lives in a racist system." This is fair. Because unlike you, Hank, who may have a passing racist thought every once in a blue moon, many of the systems in this country are discriminatory all the time.

Torturing language is never an effective way to make a point. This board, which leans left, may accept expansions of definitions, but the general public does not. When you define a word so broadly that a person such as Adder can argue that everyone fits into that category, you trifle with rendering the term utterly meaningless. That result would be a huge shame. Because few words are as important as this one.

Remember when I said you were close to getting it? Never mind. You are fucking hopeless.

TM

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

The heart of it is that this is a difficult argument of degree which should not be avoided by applying a term in an absolute manner. To do that is simply stupid. We have brains. We can assess degrees and develop boundaries where a term ought to fit and where it shouldn't.

So you've redefined the word "racism," to only include that which is intentional--intended to harm. Therefore, in your numb skull, any attempt to apply the word to unintentional acts or even to apply it with any kind of degree or nuance is wrong and impossible. This is fucking stupid. The fact that you keep repeating your stupidity does not serve as an effective argument.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Using the logic that everyone in the US is racist, all of the kids born during this thread are and will be racists. Try that argument in a forum where logic and adherence to proper use of language are demanded.

You are an asshole who has had this explained to you a number of times. You are not born a racist. But if you are born into a racist society, you internalize racism at a very young age. I provided you the studies. Hell, the fucking Doll Study* would help any halfway intelligent person understand the idea. These are not difficult concepts to understand.

TM

*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZryE2bqwdk

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

You're effectively saying that to allow a person's race to impact your bias toward the person renders one racist. This would make it impossible to not be a racist in regard to anyone of any race (unless you were blind). One would necessarily be racist toward all races.

Yes, jackass. This is exactly what everyone is saying. You don't get it because when you read your own words above, all you see is:

"You're effectively saying that to allow a person's race to impact your bias toward the person renders one an evil, intentional racist. This would make it impossible to not be a very mean, horrible racist in regard to anyone of any race (unless you were blind). One would necessarily be a terrible, evil racist toward all races."

TM

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Are yo suggesting he's some kind of rrascist?

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

If Sebby had been around for the early days of the church, I am pretty sure he would have objected to shaming everyone with the doctrine of original sin. Too negative. Sure there's a lot of evil in the world, but it's not productive to suggest that people aren't as innocent as the driven snow.

Come to think of it, it's odd that there are so many Christians who are doctrinally OK with the suggestion that man is fallen in so many other ways, but who can't handle that thought specifically about race. Snowflakes indeed.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Yes, jackass. This is exactly what everyone is saying. You don't get it because when you read your own words above, all you see is:

"You're effectively saying that to allow a person's race to impact your bias toward the person renders one an evil, intentional racist. This would make it impossible to not be a very mean, horrible racist in regard to anyone of any race (unless you were blind). One would necessarily be a terrible, evil racist toward all races."

TM

If everyone everywhere is racist toward every race, which is the definition you’re offering, then the word has no real meaning. I honestly, truly, do not care what anyone thinks, and I do not have concern for people feeling bad about being called racists. The problem isn’t that your definition is an insult or accusation. I long ago grasped that argument. It’s that you’ve now create a word indistinguishable from “biased.” The word doesn’t mean anything anymore. You’re just saying everyone is biased. Seems kind of dumb, given people are all biased toward others based on appearance and background.

Italians, Irish, Spanish, Korean... Everybody has some bias toward everyone based on background. I understand your point. You’re missing mine. When everyone’s racist, no one’s racist.

ETA: I also will never accept the logic that the society and the invididual are indistinguishable. I’ll accept there’s substantial imprinting, of course, but there’s no way to throw human agency so entirely out the window.

ETA2: A definition that would also allow a white person to call a black person in this country a racist also strikes me too broad. And that is the logical extension of the definition offered. (You’ll try to carve around it, but it’s inescapable.)

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

If Sebby had been around for the early days of the church, I am pretty sure he would have objected to shaming everyone with the doctrine of original sin. Too negative. Sure there's a lot of evil in the world, but it's not productive to suggest that people aren't as innocent as the driven snow.

Come to think of it, it's odd that there are so many Christians who are doctrinally OK with the suggestion that man is fallen in so many other ways, but who can't handle that thought specifically about race. Snowflakes indeed.

Dude, it’s the language issue. If you want to use racist to describe the whole of humanity, have at it.

It’s just kind of... strange. If a descriptive covers every living human, what distinguishing value does it have? I guess a middlebrow thinker would assume there’s a powerful value in recognizing that all men are biased regarding race. But that’s known already. It’s one of a million things we all process about each other.

Call me crazy, but I don’t care much about the heuristic running in my head that causes me to have a knee jerk opinion based on someone’s background. It’s terribly uninteresting. Of importance is the mechanism one uses to avoid its use as much as he can.

But ymmv. Much about this discussion has struck me as incredibly strange. But I guess I’m a racist. Which I gather is okay? Because we’re all racists.

Somewhere Safire is turning. (Don’t bother with the lecture on how words change over time, Ty. It’s noted.)

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

If everyone everywhere is racist toward every race, which is the definition you’re offering, then the word has no real meaning. I honestly, truly, do not care what anyone thinks, and I do not have concern for people feeling bad about being called racists. The problem isn’t that your definition is an insult or accusation. I long ago grasped that argument.

You have not. That is clear from absolutely everything you write.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

It’s that you’ve now create a word indistinguishable from “biased.” The word doesn’t mean anything anymore. You’re just saying everyone is biased. Seems kind of dumb, given people are all biased toward others based on appearance and background.

The word most definitely has a meaning. Just because it's more expansive than terms like "bigot" does not render it useless.

Many words are expansive and can be applied with nuance. If, as you say you got a long time ago, you understand the word isn't pejorative in every instance, then why is it so hard to understand that no one is going around saying, "Every person is a racist!" even if technically that is true. The point is an act is or isn't racist, regardless of intention. It can be a grand act or a minor act. All anyone is saying is that we all carry some racism with us.

When someone asks my wife to take their coat while we're waiting for a table at a restaurant, that person has done something racist. If you're telling me that I can't describe that unintentional act as racism (and/or sexism, I suppose), then the word truly has no meaning.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Italians, Irish, Spanish, Korean... Everybody has some bias toward everyone based on background. I understand your point. You’re missing mine. When everyone’s racist, no one’s racist.

No. I'm not missing your point. Everyone has bias, that's true. Everyone has sexist tendencies too. The point is to make an effort to minimize them as best you can. And limiting the definition to acts requiring bad intent makes no sense when trying to achieve that end.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

ETA: I also will never accept the logic that the society and the invididual are indistinguishable.

No one is making this argument.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

ETA2: A definition that would also allow a white person to call a black person in this country a racist also strikes me too broad.

I won't get into the distinction between racism and race prejudice. But just because black people harbor biases as well doesn't somehow render the concept pointless.

TM

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Jesus fucking Christ. You are only looking for examples of intentional, evil racism. He could list a thousand other things that do not fall into this category and you would either shoo them away or deny them.

I can tell you for a fucking fact that you have felt uncomfortable because a dark-skinned black man was walking toward you.

I am sure you have assumed someone of color was an employee when they were not.

I would bet a ton of money that you've been in a situation in which there has been a white person and a person of color and you assumed the white person was in charge.

Since none of us watch your every move we can't give you specific examples of what you do regularly that's racist. But going on the shit you post here (i.e., you think colorblindness is achievable and desirable), I think it's safe to say you, like everyone else, do racist shit. The point you need to get through your thick fucking skull is that unintentional racist shit constitutes racism too. It's just a different level. Jesus fucking Christ, man.

TM

Of course I’ve been in a couple of those situations and had thoughts like that. And those are racist thoughts.

But a definition of racism that includes every biased thought that enters anyone’s head based on perception of another’s race is so broad it becomes meaningless. I’ve bristled at perceptions people have of me based on looks and my name. Can I call them racist? I fear lots of batshit crazy white people we see in this backwash state. (There are tons of angry white dudes.). Am I racist to avoid them? Can I be racist toward what’s technically my own race? This stuff gets elliptical pretty quickly.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

But a definition of racism that includes every biased thought that enters anyone’s head based on perception of another’s race is so broad it becomes meaningless.

You simultaneously say that the broad definition of racism is meaningless and that it is too strong an accusation to make about most people. It can't be both. You're like the guy who complains that food is inedible and the portions are too small. Pick one.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Of course I’ve been in a couple of those situations and had thoughts like that. And those are racist thoughts.

Dude, that's all racism is. Racist thoughts and acts influenced by those thoughts. Jesus.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

But a definition of racism that includes every biased thought that enters anyone’s head based on perception of another’s race is so broad it becomes meaningless.

No. It's not. That's literally what racism is.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I’ve bristled at perceptions people have of me based on looks and my name. Can I call them racist?

No. But only because those perceptions were based on your name and looks, not your race.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I fear lots of batshit crazy white people we see in this backwash state. (There are tons of angry white dudes.). Am I racist to avoid them?

Why are you avoiding them? Are you avoiding specific people based on their beliefs and actions? Or are you saying that there are degrees of racism and you have found that white people in certain areas are more racist? Is your avoidance based on their race or your judgment of who they are based on where they live or how they look?

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Can I be racist toward what’s technically my own race? This stuff gets elliptical pretty quickly.

Most people who are educated in race issues distinguish between racism and race prejudice. Racism is widely considered to be something that carries with it the power of racist society and its racist institutions. Race prejudice is more likely what you're describing.

White Fragility. Read the fucking book. So much of this shit is covered. You can disagree with every word as you read it if you want. Just fucking read it.

TM

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

You simultaneously say that the broad definition of racism is meaningless and that it is too strong an accusation to make about most people. It can't be both. You're like the guy who complains that food is inedible and the portions are too small. Pick one.

They’re complimentary. Not at all mutually exclusive. But your analogy is funny and I’m stealing for use where it’s apt.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

They’re complimentary. Not at all mutually exclusive. But your analogy is funny and I’m stealing for use where it’s apt.

It’s a Woody Allen joke that even Woody stole.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

It’s that you’ve now create a word indistinguishable from “biased.”

No, it is indistinguishable from “biased based on race,” which, bingo, is what the word “racist” means.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Adder

No, it is indistinguishable from “biased based on race,” which, bingo, is what the word “racist” means.

STP, my friend.