Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I was asking about his target selection, not his critics.

whifferooski

Come to San Jose and we can go for a run together.

Im the fucking man

We would be together for a quarter mile tops. Want to run with someone contact Penske, or Thurgreed.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

You live in a conservative dreamscape where only white, rich citizens pay taxes. And there is no waking you.

I’m sure lots of undocumented have some means. But single payer isn’t ACA. So when you say we will give the undocumented HC, I don’t get how their funds matter. There is a big pool of jobs that do not collect or pay taxes. The employers are bad there, but undocumented do not pay taxes in many jobs (my kids worked jobs like that not hating on immigrants, but the jobs they have are likely mostly under radar).

Mix on top the current memes of gazillions of This people held at the border. Who do you think the average American sees as the ones getting the free HC? Bad optics the other night. Admit it.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

You live in a conservative dreamscape where only white, rich citizens pay taxes. And there is no waking you.

Translation of Ty Bullshit: “I’ve got no bullets.”

Look, I’ve probably been closer to paying for med care for an undocumented than your sheltered pompous ass. And math. Demographics don’t work for you here, and you’re full of shit and know it.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

I’m sure lots of undocumented have some means. But single payer isn’t ACA. So when you say we will give the undocumented HC, I don’t get how their funds matter. There is a big pool of jobs that do not collect or pay taxes. The employers are bad there, but undocumented do not pay taxes in many jobs (my kids worked jobs like that not hating on immigrants, but the jobs they have are likely mostly under radar).

Mix on top the current memes of gazillions of This people held at the border. Who do you think the average American sees as the ones getting the free HC? Bad optics the other night. Admit it.

He’s not going to let it go.

You can’t even be magnanimous here. I’m actually in favor of subsidizing care for the undocumented (it’s what we already do, so just make it official already). Ty has to win on proofs.

Has to be right about everything, even when it’s impossible for him to be so. Like arguing with a spouse.

Ever won an argument with a significant other? How’d that impact your love life?

Lawyers are such tools. Including me. Why am I here? My desire to debate is mindless.

We’re on a road to nowhere, and I’ve had a really nice ticket. This place is like a history of the strangest form of depression any human has had. I should be drunk and naked somewhere. So should you!

Why? Why think beyond gain/necessity? It does No Good. None at all. What do I do with it? Nothing. It just idles the engine when one is better served turning off the engine.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

You live in a conservative dreamscape where only white, rich citizens pay taxes. And there is no waking you.

Figures on this are all over the place for obvious reasons, but Vox seems to think 11 mil undocumented people pay @ $20bil In combined fed and state taxes. This calculates to to @ $2k per person.

These folks are making enough to pay into a health insurance system? You might be a ghoul here. They can’t afford it. We’re better off subsidizing them and allowing them to use every penny of disposable income in the broader economy rather than funneling a disproportionate amount to health care.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

I’m sure lots of undocumented have some means. But single payer isn’t ACA. So when you say we will give the undocumented HC, I don’t get how their funds matter. There is a big pool of jobs that do not collect or pay taxes. The employers are bad there, but undocumented do not pay taxes in many jobs (my kids worked jobs like that not hating on immigrants, but the jobs they have are likely mostly under radar).

Mix on top the current memes of gazillions of This people held at the border. Who do you think the average American sees as the ones getting the free HC? Bad optics the other night. Admit it.

I'm not arguing about the optics. (I don't think the optics are good, but I also don't think that the people who get exercised about this issue are going to vote for Democrats. Trump has done too much to make this issue central to conservatism, so trying to appease people on it just makes Democrats look weak. And it's also important for Democrats to motivate their base instead of just playing to potential swing voters.)

That aside, it is a simple fact that undocumented immigrants pay huge amounts in local, state and federal taxes. If you don't believe me, research for yourself. Sebby said their government healthcare would be "almost entirely subsidized." That implies they aren't paying taxes, and that's wrong. Moreover, the Democrats we are talking about want those immigrants to be more integrated in the legitimate economy and paying more taxes. So pretending that they want immigrants to get something for nothing is stupid.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

He’s not going to let it go.

Not let it go? I'm not even going to bother to respond to you.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Not let it go? I'm not even going to bother to respond to you.

Good. When you engage in sophistry and try to change the issue from “How much of this HC for undocumenteds will be subsidized?” (Nearly all of it) to “But... Undocumenteds do pay taxes,” you’d do well to not reply.

I did not state that illegals paid no taxes. That’s your straw man, to avoid discussing how much of their coverage will be subsidized. The Post saw through that, which should tell you something about how wise it is to attempt that redirection.

On average, undocumented immigrants do not earn anywhere near enough to pay for any significant potion of health insurance. Don’t like that fact? Take it up with Vox, which cited @ $20 bill paid by over 11 mil undocumented taxpayers (state and fed). Show me how people paying taxes that small can afford to pay for anything close to even half of health insurance.

Oh, wait, are you arguing that $ 20 bil should be credited entirely to payment for this new health insurance for them? No, because that’s theoretically taking that money away from the states and feds and directing it all to this new HC insurance. That’s just a different kind of subsidy.

This new HC for undocumenteds is heavily to nearly entirely subsidized. They simply don’t earn enough to significantly contribute.

I have no issue with that subsidy, by the way, as undocumenteds tend to be poor and spend all of their money, and I’d rather see it go into the broader economy than funneled disproportionately into health insurance. What I do have a problem with is you bullshitting.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Bullshit. A small fraction of illegals are making money adequate to pay real money for real health insurance. And you know that's bullshit.

Actually, I know it's not bullshit, I know several undocumented immigrants who have purchased plans either on the exchanges or through a local church organization. Believe it or not, whether you are documented or not, healthcare is really important.

I know one family with a little girl who has been sick who have been working their fucking tails off to make sure she is fully covered and all the uncovered expenses are paid for, and it is heartbreaking. But they've worked their way into a six figure income that mostly goes to healthcare.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

What I do have a problem with is you bullshitting.

Submitted without comment.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

I’m sure lots of undocumented have some means. But single payer isn’t ACA. So when you say we will give the undocumented HC, I don’t get how their funds matter. There is a big pool of jobs that do not collect or pay taxes. The employers are bad there, but undocumented do not pay taxes in many jobs (my kids worked jobs like that not hating on immigrants, but the jobs they have are likely mostly under radar).

Mix on top the current memes of gazillions of This people held at the border. Who do you think the average American sees as the ones getting the free HC? Bad optics the other night. Admit it.

When a question is asked of all the candidates, the plans at issue will range from single payor to Medicare for all to ACA with some improvement to ACA a bit slimmed down. If it's a Medicare for all plan, you're relying on medicare taxes (and possibly - likely - supplementary plans). Medicare taxes are paid by all, though the underground economy that doesn't report certainly does include many undocumented aliens. If its an ACA style approach, there is a policy which may or may not be subsidized. If it is subsidized, note that the inclusion of a broader set of people in the pool, even at a lower cost, helps control costs for everyone, so it's a dynamic cost model. Single payor can describe either approach, it just has to do with whether there is effective a single insurer, likely but not necessary the government, rather than multiple insurers.

Our nation is undergoing an enormous crisis in compassion and in unity; the "us" versus "them" elements in this discussion disturb me. I spend my life working with immigrants who have built businesses and added to our country, and if they're "them", count me as a "them", too, please.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I'm not arguing about the optics. (I don't think the optics are good, but I also don't think that the people who get exercised about this issue are going to vote for Democrats. Trump has done too much to make this issue central to conservatism, so trying to appease people on it just makes Democrats look weak. And it's also important for Democrats to motivate their base instead of just playing to potential swing voters.)

That aside, it is a simple fact that undocumented immigrants pay huge amounts in local, state and federal taxes. If you don't believe me, research for yourself. Sebby said their government healthcare would be "almost entirely subsidized." That implies they aren't paying taxes, and that's wrong. Moreover, the Democrats we are talking about want those immigrants to be more integrated in the legitimate economy and paying more taxes. So pretending that they want immigrants to get something for nothing is stupid.

The optics may well motivate the 'winger base, and there are some swing voters who may be affected by it, which is part of why you see Trump doubling down on immigration these days. He's determined that he can make immigration in general into a winning issue literally by abusing kids, separating families, and demonizing large groups of people.

We have to change that. Broadly. Or we will just get another Trump after him.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

When a question is asked of all the candidates, the plans at issue will range from single payor to Medicare for all to ACA with some improvement to ACA a bit slimmed down. If it's a Medicare for all plan, you're relying on medicare taxes (and possibly - likely - supplementary plans). Medicare taxes are paid by all, though the underground economy that doesn't report certainly does include many undocumented aliens. If its an ACA style approach, there is a policy which may or may not be subsidized. If it is subsidized, note that the inclusion of a broader set of people in the pool, even at a lower cost, helps control costs for everyone, so it's a dynamic cost model. Single payor can describe either approach, it just has to do with whether there is effective a single insurer, likely but not necessary the government, rather than multiple insurers.

Our nation is undergoing an enormous crisis in compassion and in unity; the "us" versus "them" elements in this discussion disturb me. I spend my life working with immigrants who have built businesses and added to our country, and if they're "them", count me as a "them", too, please.

Dude, I'd vote for any of them over Trump. You talk like I'm saying they changed my vote. I'm not sure what all the words you're writing mean, but they are mobilizing Trump votes. For no reason. Do you think a bill to extend HC of any sort to undocumented passes the House? The senate? So why give Trump the commercial?

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

We have to change that. Broadly. Or we will just get another Trump after him.

No, we voted for President Obama, twice. We just need to make sure idiots don't think the next Trump is the same as an actually competent candidate so they don't vote or vote third party.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

Dude, I'd vote for any of them over Trump. You talk like I'm saying they changed my vote. I'm not sure what all the words you're writing mean, but they are mobilizing Trump votes. For no reason. Do you think a bill to extend HC of any sort to undocumented passes the House? The senate? So why give Trump the commercial?

Don't worry, I'm not worried about you losing your mind and supporting trump. I do think we ought to be able to have a discussion about policy without working about jumpy swing voters or people motivated by hate - the first ought to respect a well thought out position (I know, wishful thinking) and the second are going to be with Trump regardless.

I actually do think that a health plan that intelligently includes everyone present in the US can get through the House today, and might get through a Senate if it flips. Note that when I say "intelligently includes" that automatically rules out anything drafted by Bernie, who hasn't gotten a major bill through anything in three decades, but not things drafted by Liz Warren or Kamala Harris, both of whom have a much better sense of how to draft thoughtful, workable bills.