Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Sebby: Hey, read this! Pitchforks! Inequality!

Also Sebby: Sure, I'll vote for the guy who offers me a tax cut.

You’re drinking some of the local kool aid. Harris is a neat meet. But she’s a nobody. Wanna do better, in a realm that matters? (Post politics).

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

You’re lost in this conversation. You’re hanging out with too many folks who cite economists to support soft libertarian views polished with a patina of progressivism. Your slip shows increasingly.

ETA: But even if we disagree on some things,...

Emphasis on "if." I don't know what I said that you're referring to. Do you want to have a conversation? Tell me what you think I said that prompts you to call me a soft libertarian. Soft? Are you calling me fat? I generally think libertarians are full of it.

... might we agree on this: You can’t punch down. A rigged game is wrong, whether you’re a Randian or a Socialist Democrat. We can disagree on how much we are our brothers’ keepers, but can’t we all agree we have a duty to not rig the game to fuck folks out of a fair chance? And maybe if we have that agreement, in the spirit of small steps leading to leaps, can we discuss ways to avoid this unfairness?

Sebby completely revised the post that this was responding to, in case anyone is confused.

Sure. Agree completely. Can't imagine why you think I disagree.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

You’re drinking some of the local kool aid. Harris is a neat meet. But she’s a nobody. Wanna do better, in a realm that matters? (Post politics).

You seem to think I'm a Harris fan. I'm not (yet -- maybe she will grow on me). I just thought "corporate" was an odd word to use to describe someone who has been a government employee for her whole working life.

So, sure, I'm happy to do better. I guess. What are you talking about, anyway?

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Sebby completely revised the post.

Franco would have revised it back. Follow your destiny Ty!

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

You seem to think I'm a Harris fan. I'm not (yet -- maybe she will grow on me). I just thought "corporate" was an odd word to use to describe someone who has been a government employee for her whole working life.

So, sure, I'm happy to do better. I guess. What are you talking about, anyway?

You know how to reach me. As Hank can attest, I use the phone. I really liked that last idea with which you were involved.

[LessinSF]

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan

About 45 miles from here, there's a massive cricket complex going up in the middle of what used to be a cow pasture. There are a lot of people who are very, very excited about this. Doesn't just have to be religion.

I first read this to ba about a cricket colony, a la a swarm of locusts. I was disappointed, but learn how massive the Indian/Pakistani community in Houston has become.

LessinDaNang, Vietnam

[LessinSF]

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan

About 45 miles from here, there's a massive cricket complex going up in the middle of what used to be a cow pasture. There are a lot of people who are very, very excited about this. Doesn't just have to be religion.

I first read this to ba about a cricket colony, a la a swarm of locusts. I was disappointed, but learn how massive the Indian/Pakistani community in Houston has become.

LessinDaNang, Vietnam

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Sebby: Hey, read this! Pitchforks! Inequality!

Also Sebby: Sure, I'll vote for the guy who offers me a tax cut.

Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

But you know this perhaps way better than I do, so I’ll ask, if you’ve ever discussed this issue with finance professionals, what do you hear? Because I hear this really creepy refrain: “Well, inevitably all cultures stratify, sort of like old English class structures.”

It's not as deep as that. When I ask people if they really want to live in the equivalent of the worst of India, with people washing in the streets, outrageously poor and uneducated, while they drive by in a limo with security to their gated towers, they shrug.

It's really just the natural extension of the "I vote with only my wallet in mind" approach to life.

TM

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

It's not as deep as that. When I ask people if they really want to live in the equivalent of the worst of India, with people washing in the streets, outrageously poor and uneducated, while they drive by in a limo with security to their gated towers, they shrug.

It's really just the natural extension of the "I vote with only my wallet in mind" approach to life.

TM

People are naturally myopic and self-important.

I was having a conversation with an investment banker, someone fairly high up at one of the top 2 banks, and they were shocked Democrats didn't seem to worry about "the investment banker vote" and seemed "to just want our money". I asked them what portion of the population they think are investment bankers and they said, half the people I know are, "I don't know what the numbers are but in NY it's a big percentage."

Now, think about the fact that people trust these folks to make investments based on data.

Such a person would never believe the sheer number of people living in poverty in NY because they don't experience it. Sure, a few people have the problem, but they live somewhere else.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I don't get what's wrong with buybacks, conceptually. Is it not essentially like paying a dividend? If a company doesn't have a good way to re-invest its cash, why not let it give the cash back to its shareholders?

Not gonna STP, so maybe already covered, but while I sort of agree, there may be policy reasons to prefer actual dividends to buybacks, including that the dividends are subject to taxation while the unrealized appreciation experienced by the insiders deciding to make the buyback is not.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

It's not as deep as that. When I ask people if they really want to live in the equivalent of the worst of India, with people washing in the streets, outrageously poor and uneducated, while they drive by in a limo with security to their gated towers, they shrug.

It's really just the natural extension of the "I vote with only my wallet in mind" approach to life.

TM

I see your argument. But what I was describing is, I think, a mindset one or two steps beyond wallet voting. Wallet voters are self interested, yes, but having been one, I can offer this: A lot of the decision to avoid taxes at all costs accrues from recognition of the reality that govt wastes money. One of my biggest annoyances is the defense budget. It infuriates me to see it increased. Tax voters are not all ogres.

I also don’t like paying for things like the NSA to spy on me.

Welfare and ACA taxes don’t bother me. But yes, poorly run programs that spend more on administration than on helping people irritate me.

But putting all of that aside, the finance people I’m talking about are not just avoiding taxes. They are predatory. There’s a belief that we’re moving into a time of scarcity for most, fabulous wealth for a few, and they need to maximize gains ASAP. Bank it for the coming collapse. They also believe they will be protected if the shit hits the fan. And if you tell them their money will not do that, that the Czar and Shah said similar things, they will call you a fool. They’ll remind you that the 1% owns the govt.

These people, many in tech as well, believe the game is rigged so well that it can’t be unrigged. And they get very angry about things like Occupy. When confronted with the fact that it’s a rigged game, they assert that they deserve what they have. I’ve argued Taleb’s randomness theory to people in this strata — that a lot what they have derived from luck. The reply is usually, that’s what losers say.

No, that’s what thoughtful people say. And thoughtful people understand that in a world where the only law is power, Monday’s winner is frequently Tuesday’s corpse. Things turn like a descent into bankruptcy... slowly, slowly, slowly, then all of the sudden rapidly and horribly.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I see your argument. But what I was describing is, I think, a mindset one or two steps beyond wallet voting. Wallet voters are self interested, yes, but having been one, I can offer this: A lot of the decision to avoid taxes at all costs accrues from recognition of the reality that govt wastes money. One of my biggest annoyances is the defense budget. It infuriates me to see it increased. Tax voters are not all ogres.

I'm not saying they're all ogres. I'm saying they're all fucking selfish assholes. If you don't push back against the actual government waste instead of using it to coat your unbelievably broad brush you use to say all government is wasteful so I'll just vote my wallet because you just don't like paying taxes, you're full of shit. These people are how we end up with a fucking little shit-rat like Grover Norquist wielding actual fucking power over the entire government.

And picking and choosing which shit you don't like paying for such that you are a wallet-only voter is fucking stupid. There are all sorts of shit I don't want to pay for. But this is a democracy. A society. Sometimes you lose, but in the grand scheme you win. We live in the richest country in the world with the greatest economy. To get to that point, it costs fucking money in the form of investment in ourselves, collectively. Wallet-voters have taken advantage of all that to enrich themselves and now they want to opt out of paying. Fuck them all. Either work to figure out where we can eliminate legitimate waste or shut the fuck up.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

But putting all of that aside, the finance people I’m talking about are not just avoiding taxes. They are predatory. There’s a belief that we’re moving into a time of scarcity for most, fabulous wealth for a few, and they need to maximize gains ASAP. Bank it for the coming collapse. They also believe they will be protected if the shit hits the fan. And if you tell them their money will not do that, that the Czar and Shah said similar things, they will call you a fool. They’ll remind you that the 1% owns the govt.

You're just describing different levels of selfish assholes. It's all the same shit whether you're talking about these assholes or the parents in whatever suburb who continually fight to have the boundaries of their school districts reduced so that their taxes never pay for a public education for someone who isn't in their income bracket. It's all the same.

TM

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

It's not as deep as that. When I ask people if they really want to live in the equivalent of the worst of India, with people washing in the streets, outrageously poor and uneducated, while they drive by in a limo with security to their gated towers, they shrug.

It's really just the natural extension of the "I vote with only my wallet in mind" approach to life.

TM

The NFL would truly suck if every team finished 8-8.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Adder

Not gonna STP, so maybe already covered, but while I sort of agree, there may be policy reasons to prefer actual dividends to buybacks, including that the dividends are subject to taxation while the unrealized appreciation experienced by the insiders deciding to make the buyback is not.

That's a policy gain in the same way that it would be if the government seized the entire company.