Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

No. If Trump becomes a dictator, it is because he and his supporters wanted that power, not because people saying stuff somehow made it happen. This is the worst sort of conservative-enabling nonsense, that people support conservatives because liberals are mean to them. Please stop it.

Would be dictators are cheap and numerous. The circumstances in which they might blossom into actual dictators are rare. They involve a silly public, misinformed, overwrought, easily manipulated.

And there has to be fear, ignorance, and paranoia on both sides of the debate.

The lunatics in the "resistance" are enabling this guy to a second win. The media is gifting him one.

Trump's brand is conflict. A sub-category of it is "these lefties are fucking crazy." The Russia nothing-burger (that's what the relevant perception turned out to be, regardless of what perceptions outliers like us might have) fed him and strengthened him. Now you've got a hopeless impeachment (Rs are cornered and have no option but to acquit) that will leave a shitstain on Biden as the primary issue rolling into 2020.

You think the voting public cares about the Ukraine thing. They don't. You are out of touch. Your views, and the views of most here, are the exception, not the rule. They don't care about your arguments about the sanctity of rule of law, and they hear most lurid voices on the left scream about fascism and break Godwin's Law and think, "man, these people in the 'resistance' really are fucking nuts."

See, most people in a country with a median wage of $50k or something like that, are in a different place in Maslow's Hierachy than people like us, and the media we consume.

The average person cares about issues that hit him in the pocketbook. (Even the Hispanic and Latino vote cannot be captured in full solely based on the immigration arguments of the left... Why? Because a lot of them vote their economic interests first, like a lot of everyone else.)

Warren and Bernie are talking issues. But they're relegated to opening acts for the "Great Impeachment Election of 2020." The "Resistance" in the public and the media have instead made it this an election about Ukraine.

Putin probably has a hernia from laughing.

I'm not enabling anything. Taibbi's not enabling anything. I'm Vin Scully here, and I'm telling you, you're the enabler. You don't impeach a guy who has no platform on issues. You ignore him him and run on issues. You don't exhaust the public with endless investigations that they perceive as political bullshit.

The general public reaction to this stuff is a "pox on both their houses," "politicians doing what they do," and "President Clown versus a clown car of incompetent Torquemadas." (Well, they don't use that last reference, but you get the point.)

But... If you must choose to fight him - if you've really got to try to capture defeat from the jaws of victory - do it coolly. Make fun of him, only reference him quickly, with a roll of the eyes. Biden actually gets this. He's dealing with Trump the right way. So are Bernie and Warren to a lesser extent. The problem is the media, and the people who are invested in taking down Trump but can't wait until the election to do so. The media wants a fight, so they're attacking Trump relentlessly, which gifts him free airtime. And they're overreaching, emotional as all fuck, and it makes them look ridiculous. (This Ukraine thing? Probably not going anywhere... and no one, not even sane Democrats, believe it's about wanting to "save democracy." It's all about power, and Schiff's a garden variety ambitious politician, not much better than Trump, which everyone sees.)

You can't appeal for "justice" in the political realm with a straight face. That demands a level of credulity too high even for the common American voter.

The enabling is the extreme wing of your party's silly behavior for the past two years. Trump can be easily beaten at the ballot box. Trying to beat him as you are - with overwrought freakouts about everything the buffoon does and hopeless littany of investigations (look at any media outlet this morning and you'll see at least two hyperbolic, frothing denunciations of Trump, as you will every day he remains in office) - is simply enabling and strengthening him. Conflict is what Trump wants. And it's what his base wants. As you've noted, those sorts are all about "owning the libs."

Keep frothing. Keep giving Trump nation, and Trump, what they want if you like. Keep preaching to the choir in blue states, ignoring the Electoral College. Keep relearning the definition of insanity. Just don't get chaffed about people like Taibbi telling you that you and the media on which you gorge are helping him get re-elected.

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I'm, uh, second guessing myself for ironic effect.* But you knew that. Or maybe you didn't. (Look, I just did it again.)

Trump is alleged to have stolen a lot. In that basket is your sense of humor. Since this guy's been elected, you've become tediously self-righteous. It reminds me of that line from the James' tune:

The therapist said not to see you no more
She said you're like a disease without any cure
She said I'm so obsessed that I'm becoming a bore, oh no

Trump, a first rate buffoon, has turned you into an earnest dullard. You have to be better than that.

There's also this line in the tune:

Ah you think you're so pretty

______
* This gimmick is perhaps overused regarding Trump, and it might not even really be entirely ironic. I'm not sure Trump or his administration are sure why they do anything.

Listen, man, I get it. Humor is objective. I doubt Eazy-E chuckled much when No Vaseline first came booming out. But what you don't seem to get is that I have been trying enforce minimum levels of mental discipline on this board since before Trump was a reality TV star. It is literally a thankless job. And I know that cats like you like to play a little fast and loose, throw some wack-job shit out there, and think that you're provoking some totally disruptive outside-the-box convos. Which is all fine. But when all you do is spew poorly-written, internally-contradictory nonsense, parrot cliched catch-phrases ad nauseam, and bandy about aphorisms that are jarringly out-of-context, it's obvious to everyone that you're just phoning it in. You have to be better than that. I'm not saying you need to Bryan Garner every post, but your weak-kneed half-assed wannabe-provocateurism is a slap in the face for those of us that care about maintaining certain standards of intellectual rigor on this page. And then you act surprised when nobody treats you like the deranged-but-brilliant love child of Hunter Thompson and Matt Taibbi that you so desperately want to be. Understand that I do what I do because I care. Here is a little snippet from an interview with Ice Cube that I think will help you get it.

Q: You said that when [No Vaseline] came out, it knocked down the remain members of N.W.A. like bowling pins.
Cube: True, but what folks don't get is that I wrote that song with love in my heart.
Q: With love in your heart?
Cube: Yes . . .
Q: So when, well, o.k., so when you wrote that Eazy-E's dick smelled like MC Ren's shit, that was written out of love?
Cube [laughing]: Yeah, well, you know, love and anger. Eazy-E was messed up, he was on a bad path, and it was not gonna help him if I wasn't straight up with him.
Q: Sometimes sugarcoating the message is not the right thing to do?
Cube: Exactly.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

Listen, man, I get it. Humor is objective. I doubt Eazy-E chuckled much when No Vaseline first came booming out. But what you don't seem to get is that I have been trying enforce minimum levels of mental discipline on this board since before Trump was a reality TV star. It is literally a thankless job. And I know that cats like you like to play a little fast and loose, throw some wack-job shit out there, and think that you're provoking some totally disruptive outside-the-box convos. Which is all fine. But when all you do is spew poorly-written, internally-contradictory nonsense, parrot cliched catch-phrases ad nauseam, and bandy about aphorisms that are jarringly out-of-context, it's obvious to everyone that you're just phoning it in. You have to be better than that. I'm not saying you need to Bryan Garner every post, but your weak-kneed half-assed wannabe-provocateurism is a slap in the face for those of us that care about maintaining certain standards of intellectual rigor on this page. And then you act surprised when nobody treats you like the deranged-but-brilliant love child of Hunter Thompson and Matt Taibbi that you so desperately want to be. Understand that I do what I do because I care. Here is a little snippet from an interview with Ice Cube that I think will help you get it.

Q: You said that when [No Vaseline] came out, it knocked down the remain members of N.W.A. like bowling pins.
Cube: True, but what folks don't get is that I wrote that song with love in my heart.
Q: With love in your heart?
Cube: Yes . . .
Q: So when, well, o.k., so when you wrote that Eazy-E's dick smelled like MC Ren's shit, that was written out of love?
Cube [laughing]: Yeah, well, you know, love and anger. Eazy-E was messed up, he was on a bad path, and it was not gonna help him if I wasn't straight up with him.
Q: Sometimes sugarcoating the message is not the right thing to do?
Cube: Exactly.

"I missed the irony" would have saved you about 15 minutes.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Would be dictators are cheap and numerous. The circumstances in which they might blossom into actual dictators are rare. They involve a silly public, misinformed, overwrought, easily manipulated.

And there has to be fear, ignorance, and paranoia on both sides of the debate.

The lunatics in the "resistance" are enabling this guy to a second win. The media is gifting him one.

Trump's brand is conflict. A sub-category of it is "these lefties are fucking crazy." The Russia nothing-burger (that's what the relevant perception turned out to be, regardless of what perceptions outliers like us might have) fed him and strengthened him. Now you've got a hopeless impeachment (Rs are cornered and have no option but to acquit) that will leave a shitstain on Biden as the primary issue rolling into 2020.

You think the voting public cares about the Ukraine thing. They don't. You are out of touch. Your views, and the views of most here, are the exception, not the rule. They don't care about your arguments about the sanctity of rule of law, and they hear most lurid voices on the left scream about fascism and break Godwin's Law and think, "man, these people in the 'resistance' really are fucking nuts."

See, most people in a country with a median wage of $50k or something like that, are in a different place in Maslow's Hierachy than people like us, and the media we consume.

The average person cares about issues that hit him in the pocketbook. (Even the Hispanic and Latino vote cannot be captured in full solely based on the immigration arguments of the left... Why? Because a lot of them vote their economic interests first, like a lot of everyone else.)

Warren and Bernie are talking issues. But they're relegated to opening acts for the "Great Impeachment Election of 2020." The "Resistance" in the public and the media have instead made it this an election about Ukraine.

Putin probably has a hernia from laughing.

I'm not enabling anything. Taibbi's not enabling anything. I'm Vin Scully here, and I'm telling you, you're the enabler. You don't impeach a guy who has no platform on issues. You ignore him him and run on issues. You don't exhaust the public with endless investigations that they perceive as political bullshit.

The general public reaction to this stuff is a "pox on both their houses," "politicians doing what they do," and "President Clown versus a clown car of incompetent Torquemadas." (Well, they don't use that last reference, but you get the point.)

But... If you must choose to fight him - if you've really got to try to capture defeat from the jaws of victory - do it coolly. Make fun of him, only reference him quickly, with a roll of the eyes. Biden actually gets this. He's dealing with Trump the right way. So are Bernie and Warren to a lesser extent. The problem is the media, and the people who are invested in taking down Trump but can't wait until the election to do so. The media wants a fight, so they're attacking Trump relentlessly, which gifts him free airtime. And they're overreaching, emotional as all fuck, and it makes them look ridiculous. (This Ukraine thing? Probably not going anywhere... and no one, not even sane Democrats, believe it's about wanting to "save democracy." It's all about power, and Schiff's a garden variety ambitious politician, not much better than Trump, which everyone sees.)

You can't appeal for "justice" in the political realm with a straight face. That demands a level of credulity too high even for the common American voter.

The enabling is the extreme wing of your party's silly behavior for the past two years. Trump can be easily beaten at the ballot box. Trying to beat him as you are - with overwrought freakouts about everything the buffoon does and hopeless littany of investigations (look at any media outlet this morning and you'll see at least two hyperbolic, frothing denunciations of Trump, as you will every day he remains in office) - is simply enabling and strengthening him. Conflict is what Trump wants. And it's what his base wants. As you've noted, those sorts are all about "owning the libs."

Keep frothing. Keep giving Trump nation, and Trump, what they want if you like. Keep preaching to the choir in blue states, ignoring the Electoral College. Keep relearning the definition of insanity. Just don't get chaffed about people like Taibbi telling you that you and the media on which you gorge are helping him get re-elected.

You are the one that's frothing. You just responded to a three-sentence post with paragraphs and paragraphs of gobbledegook.

There's this idea that you share that Republican craziness is somehow caused by something the left or the media has done. That's nonsense. They own their craziness.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

Listen, man, I get it. Humor is objective. I doubt Eazy-E chuckled much when No Vaseline first came booming out. But what you don't seem to get is that I have been trying enforce minimum levels of mental discipline on this board since before Trump was a reality TV star. It is literally a thankless job. And I know that cats like you like to play a little fast and loose, throw some wack-job shit out there, and think that you're provoking some totally disruptive outside-the-box convos. Which is all fine. But when all you do is spew poorly-written, internally-contradictory nonsense, parrot cliched catch-phrases ad nauseam, and bandy about aphorisms that are jarringly out-of-context, it's obvious to everyone that you're just phoning it in. You have to be better than that. I'm not saying you need to Bryan Garner every post, but your weak-kneed half-assed wannabe-provocateurism is a slap in the face for those of us that care about maintaining certain standards of intellectual rigor on this page. And then you act surprised when nobody treats you like the deranged-but-brilliant love child of Hunter Thompson and Matt Taibbi that you so desperately want to be. Understand that I do what I do because I care. Here is a little snippet from an interview with Ice Cube that I think will help you get it.

Q: You said that when [No Vaseline] came out, it knocked down the remain members of N.W.A. like bowling pins.
Cube: True, but what folks don't get is that I wrote that song with love in my heart.
Q: With love in your heart?
Cube: Yes . . .
Q: So when, well, o.k., so when you wrote that Eazy-E's dick smelled like MC Ren's shit, that was written out of love?
Cube [laughing]: Yeah, well, you know, love and anger. Eazy-E was messed up, he was on a bad path, and it was not gonna help him if I wasn't straight up with him.
Q: Sometimes sugarcoating the message is not the right thing to do?
Cube: Exactly.

Thanks for all you do, Flower.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

The Russia nothing-burger (that's what the relevant perception turned out to be, regardless of what perceptions outliers like us might have) fed him and strengthened him.

You know what would be helpful in combating the perception that a campaign that repeatedly sought, welcomed and received Russia election interference, via hundreds of contacts and extensive Russia active measures and then lied and obstructed justice to cover it up, such that the administration is obviously compromised in that Russia certainly knows things that if they became public would at least embarrass the President? Not having journalists "on the left" dismissing it as nothing.

I don't know what's wrong with Tiabbi and Greenwald. They both have ties to Russia, so maybe they're compromised somehow. Or maybe they just so distrust the intelligence community that they're having trouble grasping reality. But they are out there spouting nonsense for some reason.

You think the voting public cares about the Ukraine thing. They don't. You are out of touch. Your views, and the views of most here, are the exception, not the rule.

Your so fucking tedious. To the extent the public doesn't care, it is in part because people like you and Tiabbi give them license not to care.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Adder

You know what would be helpful in combating the perception that a campaign that repeatedly sought, welcomed and received Russia election interference, via hundreds of contacts and extensive Russia active measures and then lied and obstructed justice to cover it up, such that the administration is obviously compromised in that Russia certainly knows things that if they became public would at least embarrass the President? Not having journalists "on the left" dismissing it as nothing.

I don't know what's wrong with Tiabbi and Greenwald. They both have ties to Russia, so maybe they're compromised somehow. Or maybe they just so distrust the intelligence community that they're having trouble grasping reality. But they are out there spouting nonsense for some reason.



Your so fucking tedious. To the extent the public doesn't care, it is in part because people like you and Tiabbi give them license not to care.

I'm sure Sebby spends quite a bit of his life worrying what the average member of the public cares about. When he decides what to wear, what to eat, what TV to watch, where to go on vacation -- what's important is not his own sensibilities, but that John Q. Public is thinking. That's why he drinks Budweiser and drives a Ford F150, for example. His approach to politics is just part of his steadfast commitment to small-d democracy in all things.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

You are the one that's frothing. You just responded to a three-sentence post with paragraphs and paragraphs of gobbledegook.

There's this idea that you share that Republican craziness is somehow caused by something the left or the media has done. That's nonsense. They own their craziness.

You're being dumb. Dumb drives me nuts. If you can't see that Taibbi is right when he says the "Resistance/Left" and the media are playing into Trump's hands, I don't know how you manage to write in English.

You claim the crazy right is reactive. How do you stop something from reacting?

If this a chicken/egg thing, who cares? I don't know where the crazy started, but I know that:

1. Countering crazy with different crazy isn't usually a strong strategy
2. Feeding the crazy is a really bad strategy

You're fixated on where it started. You should fixate more on your point about the crazy being reactive, and what's causing it to grow. That's what Taibbi is saying.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

You know what would be helpful in combating the perception that a campaign that repeatedly sought, welcomed and received Russia election interference, via hundreds of contacts and extensive Russia active measures and then lied and obstructed justice to cover it up, such that the administration is obviously compromised in that Russia certainly knows things that if they became public would at least embarrass the President? Not having journalists "on the left" dismissing it as nothing.

Prove it or shut up about it.

I don't know what's wrong with Tiabbi and Greenwald. They both have ties to Russia, so maybe they're compromised somehow.

Tinfoil hatter talk.

Or maybe they just so distrust the intelligence community that they're having trouble grasping reality. But they are out there spouting nonsense for some reason.

Maybe you're misreading the evidence and seeing a buffoon passively inviting foreign assistance in 2016 as a grand conspiracy. Maybe you're delusional and Taibbi and Greenwald are telling you that and this annoys you because, if we tried the case today, they'd win and you'd lose?

Your so fucking tedious. To the extent the public doesn't care, it is in part because people like you and Tiabbi give them license not to care.

This is serious cuckoo pants stuff. I'm at fault for your inability to prove your conspiracy theory.

The sky is falling, I tell you, and it would... if only for you people saying it's not. (Cue Twilight Zone music.)

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I'm sure Sebby spends quite a bit of his life worrying what the average member of the public cares about. When he decides what to wear, what to eat, what TV to watch, where to go on vacation -- what's important is not his own sensibilities, but that John Q. Public is thinking. That's why he drinks Budweiser and drives a Ford F150, for example. His approach to politics is just part of his steadfast commitment to small-d democracy in all things.

This is actually true. My tastes and sensibilities are no more Joe Sixpack's than yours.

But unlike you, I'm not asserting my tastes and the country's coincide. I think you think you speak for a group of people who'll make a difference in the Electoral College.

If the average American read our arguments, they'd think we were entitled jackasses. But I think I can read what they're interested in by simply applying Maslow's Hierachy.

Put yourself in prole shoes (hi Paigow) and walk a mile. I think you'll see what I'm seeing, and why the crazy left wing alienates people and drives them toward His Orangeness.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Prove it or shut up about it.

Read the Mueller report. Everything I said other then the perfectly obvious conclusion that everything that happened gives Putin leverage over Trump is in there.

And that's probably in the portions that weren't released to the public.

Maybe you're misreading the evidence and seeing a buffoon passively inviting foreign assistance...

Again, go read the Mueller report, because there's a lot more than that in there. How are you still ignorant of this?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

You're being dumb. Dumb drives me nuts. If you can't see that Taibbi is right when he says the "Resistance/Left" and the media are playing into Trump's hands, I don't know how you manage to write in English.

Are the "Resistance/Left" and the mainstream media identical in your mind? Of course not. Please try to be clear whom you are blaming for what Trump does.

You complain about my English, but you deploy language like a cluster bomb. You said that if Trump becomes a dictator, his opponents "bear some responsibility." No. They don't. Trump and his supporters bear the responsibility, not the people opposing him, much in the same way that a rapist is "responsible," not the victim who was out late drinking. If you are going to use words that carry moral freight, you have to actually engage with questions of right and wrong, as much as you would prefer to do horserace politics.

Since normative concepts like responsibility are not your cup of tea, you'd rather talk about which tactics will work against Trump. The problem with having this conversation with you is that you insist on pretending that Trump's opposition is monolithic. Trump has a lot of opponents, and not only do they not share a set of common beliefs, they also do not coordinate closely with each other. Notwithstanding your fixation on referring to "the Left" as if naming it makes it so, we are not talking about Leninists here. So it is inevitable that different Trump opponents will try different things, some of which will work better for him. That is a fact of life in a democracy. For example, many of the intelligence sources that Taibbi talks about are almost certainly not even Democrats, let alone of the Left.

You claim the crazy right is reactive. How do you stop something from reacting?

Exactly. You can't stop them from reacting. When they don't have real things to react to, they make up fake things.

If this a chicken/egg thing, who cares? I don't know where the crazy started, but I know that:

1. Countering crazy with different crazy isn't usually a strong strategy
2. Feeding the crazy is a really bad strategy

When Gandhi arrives to save us, let me know.

You're fixated on where it started. You should fixate more on your point about the crazy being reactive, and what's causing it to grow. That's what Taibbi is saying.

What do you think I'm fixated on? Please describe my views to me, as I am unfamiliar with whatever the fuck you are talking about.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

This is actually true. My tastes and sensibilities are no more Joe Sixpack's than yours.

My post might make more sense to you if you reread it assuming that I know that, and was tweaking you for it.

But unlike you, I'm not asserting my tastes and the country's coincide. I think you think you speak for a group of people who'll make a difference in the Electoral College.

I have told you many times that I am under no such illusion, and yet you persist in saying this. Please, find the the post where I asserted that my tastes and the country's co-incide. I'll wait here patiently while you go and find it.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

My post might make more sense to you if you reread it assuming that I know that, and was tweaking you for it.



I have told you many times that I am under no such illusion, and yet you persist in saying this. Please, find the the post where I asserted that my tastes and the country's co-incide. I'll wait here patiently while you go and find it.

Now I have missed the irony. Oh well... Maybe I am phoning it in. I have a hard time getting invested these days.

I was invested regarding Iraq, and 2008. I’m kind of in a “meh” zone on Trump. I’m inclined more to gawk than get seriously interested.

Probably a symptom of age.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

That's not a "self-fulfilling prophecy" unless you pretend that the media causes Trump to do things he otherwise would not do. If the risk of losing power prompts Trump to act like a dictator, that's not the media's fault.

Taibbi went off the deep end years ago. He's not worth reading at all anymore.

TM