Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Trump got in trouble because he used his office, and taxpayer money, for political gain. Any senator or congressman would be in similar trouble for doing the same. Look at Christie in NJ, for example.

But Presidents are allowed to use Air Force One to travel to political events? How is the use of AFO for political travel not an abuse of power?

For as long as I can recall, I'd hear news stories starting with, "President Reagan traveled to Ohio today to support so and so..." or "President Clinton was in Los Angeles to meet with donors at..." They've all done it. They do it all the time.

I guess the argument is, "How else would the President travel? He has to use AFO."

Okay, well if that's the case, then shouldn't his party reimburse taxpayers for his use of the jet for party political events? Or maybe he shouldn't be allowed to simply use the jet because he feels like it? How much have we spent on Trump's trips to Mar a Lago?

I understand that it's difficult to separate the political from the official, and using one's resources for political ends (holding press conferences or taking foreign trips for political gain, starting investigations for political purposes, siccing agencies on political opponents, etc.) has been common forever. But this is openly using a plane that costs a fortune per hour to operate for political purposes. Openly. Presidents will talk to the press on the tarmac about how they're going to get in the plane, with a cadre of expensive Secret Service people, and fly to some location to support a political ally at some rally or other event. They nakedly admit using it to travel to fundraisers.

How is this not an unlawful use of govt money for political purposes?

The President flies in Air Force One to accommodate the security requirements of the office and the people who need to travel with him for, e.g., national security reasons, regardless of the reason for the trip. I have no problem with it.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I know that we're far off from the election and Biden steps on his dick and Warren/Bernie/Mayor Pete are surging in this or that state's polls, but can one of you tell me again why Biden's numbers are still so strong? Because none of you have convinced me he won't win by the biggest margin (exactly for the reasons I've stated here numerous times).



Let me guess. Poll is flawed somehow?

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaig...tLcCCsYK_D5ZGs

TM

If other voters are anything like me, and Sebby tells me they aren't, a lot of people aren't paying close attention yet.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

The President flies in Air Force One to accommodate the security requirements of the office and the people who need to travel with him for, e.g., national security reasons, regardless of the reason for the trip. I have no problem with it.

I wrote that, yes, that’s the argument most would make to justify his use of the plane.

I’ve also heard the “it’s an incumbent’s perk” argument.

But no matter how you slice it, to the extent it’s used for political trips, this is a huge subsidy to the incumbent party without any corresponding credit to the opposition party. If Trump can take AFO to rallies, we should budget for an amount equal to the cost of doing so to be given to the DNC. Otherwise, you have the party out of power subsidizing the party in power. Seems fundamentally unfair.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

If other voters are anything like me, and Sebby tells me they aren't, a lot of people aren't paying close attention yet.

It’s too early.

But if it were held today, Trump v. Biden, Trump would walk away with it.

This impeachment thing is doing the Democrats no favors. Trump is fighting with McConnell to prolong it! Mitch wants it done quick. Trump thinks it’s helping him. https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/10/polit...ent/index.html

Given no one who matters seems to care about it, I think Mitch is right. But given the fact that it steals spotlight from Democrat candidates and diverts it to Trump, maybe Trump is shrewder here?

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

If other voters are anything like me, and Sebby tells me they aren't.

At least you aren’t being told you don’t exist.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I wrote that, yes, that’s the argument most would make to justify his use of the plane.

I’ve also heard the “it’s an incumbent’s perk” argument.

But no matter how you slice it, to the extent it’s used for political trips, this is a huge subsidy to the incumbent party without any corresponding credit to the opposition party. If Trump can take AFO to rallies, we should budget for an amount equal to the cost of doing so to be given to the DNC. Otherwise, you have the party out of power subsidizing the party in power. Seems fundamentally unfair.

Not if you read what I said. It's not a subsidy. It's not a perk. POTUS could fly in a charter, and he would get to his rallies. Because he flies in Air Force One, we are all safer.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I know that we're far off from the election and Biden steps on his dick and Warren/Bernie/Mayor Pete are surging in this or that state's polls, but can one of you tell me again why Biden's numbers are still so strong? Because none of you have convinced me he won't win by the biggest margin (exactly for the reasons I've stated here numerous times).



Let me guess. Poll is flawed somehow?

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaig...tLcCCsYK_D5ZGs

TM

Actually, this is one poll that I think just goes to Joe Biden. If there are a couple more that confirm it, it's a big plus.

The national polls that are getting pushed as dispositive that Joe has an advantage against Trump, including by my friends at Third Way, don't really show that. Other state polls cut both ways. I would say right now that it is not clear whether Joe has an advantage over Liz (whose numbers I've looked at most closely) in the electoral college, assuming each run a good campaign (the big assumption I worry about). But the differences in that Texas poll look very significant and very real.

We don't even need to win Texas, just making it competitive will suck up 100M in the Presidential and give heart attacks to the whole Texas Republican party.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I know that we're far off from the election and Biden steps on his dick and Warren/Bernie/Mayor Pete are surging in this or that state's polls, but can one of you tell me again why Biden's numbers are still so strong? Because none of you have convinced me he won't win by the biggest margin (exactly for the reasons I've stated here numerous times).



Let me guess. Poll is flawed somehow?

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaig...tLcCCsYK_D5ZGs

TM

if CNN polls were accurate we wouldn’t have to worry about polls right now.

My thing with Biden is he is way more likely to say something(s) really stupid. Plus, I think we need someone who can respond quickly to space fuck in debates, and Biden is not that. But guys from Michigan or NY ain’t having a voice in who is nominated so we will see.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn...lls/index.html

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

if CNN polls were accurate we wouldn’t have to worry about polls right now.

My thing with Biden is he is way more likely to say something(s) really stupid. Plus, I think we need someone who can respond quickly to space fuck in debates, and Biden is not that. But guys from Michigan or NY ain’t having a voice in who is nominated so we will see.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn...lls/index.html

Maybe, but you're going to have the most valuable vote here come the general.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

The President flies in Air Force One to accommodate the security requirements of the office and the people who need to travel with him for, e.g., national security reasons, regardless of the reason for the trip. I have no problem with it.

If I write the words, "How else would the President travel? He has to use AFO," would this not be saying the same thing? No. Of course it is saying the same thing.

If I note there’s another argument that it’s a perk, but I don’t attribute it to you, have I nevertheless attributed it to you because we’re having an exchange? No. Of course not.

So might I ask, how I have I not read what you wrote? Because it is indeed your point that due to security concerns, there is no other way for POTUS to fly that caused me - in agreement with that point - to respond that, where POTUS flies for political reasons, the DNC should receive compensation.

ETA: Trump is exploiting his position in using AFO for rallies. He’s enjoying the use for political gain with the insurmountable alibi that there’s no other way for him to travel. Giving the DNC the value of his trips seems sensible to address that abuse (which will otherwise persist indefinitely with every POTUS.)

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

If I write the words, "How else would the President travel? He has to use AFO," would this not be saying the same thing? No. Of course it is saying the same thing.

If I note there’s another argument that it’s a perk, but I don’t attribute it to you, have I nevertheless attributed it to you because we’re having an exchange? No. Of course not.

So might I ask, how I have I not read what you wrote? Because it is indeed your point that due to security concerns, there is no other way for POTUS to fly that caused me - in agreement with that point - to respond that, where POTUS flies for political reasons, the DNC should receive compensation.

Why are you so focused on DNC? Weren’t you the sock hoping for funds for the 3rd parties?

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

Why are you so focused on DNC? Weren’t you the sock hoping for funds for the 3rd parties?

That’s a great point. We’d have to credit non-incumbent parties a sum based on number of registered members?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

My thing with Biden is he is way more likely to say something(s) really stupid.

In Joe's defense, Trump has proven that you can say a lot of stupid stuff and still win.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

If I write the words, "How else would the President travel? He has to use AFO," would this not be saying the same thing? No. Of course it is saying the same thing.

If I note there’s another argument that it’s a perk, but I don’t attribute it to you, have I nevertheless attributed it to you because we’re having an exchange? No. Of course not.

So might I ask, how I have I not read what you wrote? Because it is indeed your point that due to security concerns, there is no other way for POTUS to fly that caused me - in agreement with that point - to respond that, where POTUS flies for political reasons, the DNC should receive compensation.

ETA: Trump is exploiting his position in using AFO for rallies. He’s enjoying the use for political gain with the insurmountable alibi that there’s no other way for him to travel. Giving the DNC the value of his trips seems sensible to address that abuse (which will otherwise persist indefinitely with every POTUS.)

Trump is flying in Air Force One because we all want him to be flying in the equivalent of a hardened bunker with super-duper comms that can circle without landing for several days in the event of a nuclear war or flu outbreak. I like Joe and Liz and Bernie enough, but they don't need to do that. So if you give them the same money, they blow it on hookers and blow, and it would be unfair to Trump to let them do that and make him spend that money on flying in his airborne bunker.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Trump is flying in Air Force One because we all want him to be flying in the equivalent of a hardened bunker with super-duper comms that can circle without landing for several days in the event of a nuclear war or flu outbreak. I like Joe and Liz and Bernie enough, but they don't need to do that. So if you give them the same money, they blow it on hookers and blow, and it would be unfair to Trump to let them do that and make him spend that money on flying in his airborne bunker.

When I was a quasi-judicial official in the Reagan Commerce Department my area extended to aircraft engines. So we got to go to the Air Force Association annual trade show. A gazillion hawkers hawking gazillion dollar things. I went for the free handouts, but I digress. I found a pack of matches with the logo: Air Force One. I agree the prez needs a plane, but does the plane need free give aways? The plane doesn’t need to look for new customers.