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[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Can anyone explain to me Israel's military strategy?

If their goal is to kill Hamas fighters, they are very very bad at it. High estimates from Israeli sources are running to 400 dead, and both Israeli and US sources are now saying the 10,000 estimated dead from the Gazan health folks is likely significantly low. That's a stunningly bad ratio (for example, in the battle of Mosul, the battle with the highest civilian death count during the war on terror, we killed 10,000 combatants and about 10,000 civilians died - and in that case, there were a lot of civilians killed by IS, not us).

They are now explicitly targeting both journalists and hospitals with bombs - these aren't even vaguely defensible, and is a great way to isolate themselves internationally.

They seem to have no traction on either recapturing or negotiating for the release of hostages, and have almost certainly put hostages at risk with indiscriminate bombing.

There are only two explanations I see - one is that their military just isn't very good, the other is that their strategy is something other than freeing the hostages and killing Hamas combatants.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Can anyone explain to me Israel's military strategy?

If their goal is to kill Hamas fighters, they are very very bad at it. High estimates from Israeli sources are running to 400 dead, and both Israeli and US sources are now saying the 10,000 estimated dead from the Gazan health folks is likely significantly low. That's a stunningly bad ratio (for example, in the battle of Mosul, the battle with the highest civilian death count during the war on terror, we killed 10,000 combatants and about 10,000 civilians died - and in that case, there were a lot of civilians killed by IS, not us).

They are now explicitly targeting both journalists and hospitals with bombs - these aren't even vaguely defensible, and is a great way to isolate themselves internationally.

They seem to have no traction on either recapturing or negotiating for the release of hostages, and have almost certainly put hostages at risk with indiscriminate bombing.

There are only two explanations I see - one is that their military just isn't very good, the other is that their strategy is something other than freeing the hostages and killing Hamas combatants.

As to hostages, they pretty clearly have written them off as likely dead. I would say if they didn't do that they'd see more hostages? And as hostages who are citizens of other countries turn up dead Hamas will be tarnished (their hope, I do not know that will go that way).

When my daughter was in Israel during one of the flare ups there was a pre-visit group call. The people organizing her Birth Right trip were strong that Hamas or Hezbollah or whoever it was that time would not harm Americans as the fall out would be too great. This time they crossed that line, way crossed it. And the fallout has mainly been Jewish kids getting beaten on college campuses.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

As to hostages, they pretty clearly have written them off as likely dead. I would say if they didn't do that they'd see more hostages? And as hostages who are citizens of other countries turn up dead Hamas will be tarnished (their hope, I do not know that will go that way).

When my daughter was in Israel during one of the flare ups there was a pre-visit group call. The people organizing her Birth Right trip were strong that Hamas or Hezbollah or whoever it was that time would not harm Americans as the fall out would be too great. This time they crossed that line, way crossed it. And the fallout has mainly been Jewish kids getting beaten on college campuses.

Hamas is pretty damn tarnished already. I hope to hell many of them are still alive, and it seems like they are from Barak Ravid's reporting today on US negotiations trying to free them.

I have to say, my son's experience of college is quite different, he's seen more of the cancel culture and attempts to silence people, especially at two of the four colleges in their cluster. He's especially seen it targeted at one of his apartment mates who is active in Jewish Voice for Peace.

But none of this answers my question: what is Israel's military strategy here? I spent the day today in the hospital reading MSF's dispatches from a hospital under siege - what is that accomplishing?

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Hamas is pretty damn tarnished already. I hope to hell many of them are still alive, and it seems like they are from Barak Ravid's reporting today on US negotiations trying to free them.

I have to say, my son's experience of college is quite different, he's seen more of the cancel culture and attempts to silence people, especially at two of the four colleges in their cluster. He's especially seen it targeted at one of his apartment mates who is active in Jewish Voice for Peace.

But none of this answers my question: what is Israel's military strategy here? I spent the day today in the hospital reading MSF's dispatches from a hospital under siege - what is that accomplishing?

Netanyahu was on a Sunday morning news show earlier and just kept repeating “the destruction of Hamas” as its objective.

It looks a lot like what we did in Afghanistan right after 9/11. A cathartic display of might and ruthlessness, but ultimately of dubious effectiveness.

A better angle, IMO, is a policy of assassination of all Hamas members. Deem their lives forfeit and start killing then, regardless of whether they’ve done anything, from this day forward. And start assassinating them in Doha as well. Pre-emptive murder. That’s the only way to even attempt to “destroy Hamas” w/o mass innocent casualties like what we’re seeing now.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Netanyahu was on a Sunday morning news show earlier and just kept repeating “the destruction of Hamas” as its objective.

It looks a lot like what we did in Afghanistan right after 9/11. A cathartic display of might and ruthlessness, but ultimately of dubious effectiveness.

A better angle, IMO, is a policy of assassination of all Hamas members. Deem their lives forfeit and start killing then, regardless of whether they’ve done anything, from this day forward. And start assassinating them in Doha as well. Pre-emptive murder. That’s the only way to even attempt to “destroy Hamas” w/o mass innocent casualties like what we’re seeing now.

The long term slow process of killing off terrorists through special ops and police action is how we got rid of the Islamic State. It works.

The strategy Israel is using looks more like what the Russians and Syrians are doing in Syria. Not sure it ever works to meet its objective, but it can certainly leave a local population terrorized and careful.

I don't know if you saw the leaked memo from the Dutch Defense ministry, but apparently the Dutch at least believe they have info from the IDF suggesting that they have explicitly targeted Gaza infrastructure, making Gaza into an unlivable place for a long time to come and resulting in many more civilian deaths than if they were targeting Hamas.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

And the fallout has mainly been Jewish kids getting beaten on college campuses.

If you ignore the violence against others, then the fallout is mainly Jewish kids getting beaten. All of it is awful.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Glad I went running in Grindavik when I did, because it may not be an option much longer.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

If you ignore the violence against others, then the fallout is mainly Jewish kids getting beaten. All of it is awful.

There's absolutely no doubt there is a rise in antisemitism and a rise in crimes against people who are Islamic or who, regardless of religion, are from any part of MENA.

But there's also an attempt to use antisemitism in particular as a cudgel to silence people and enable conduct that lies somewhere between ethnic cleansing and genocide today. In connection with this, of course, there is always a hypocritical article by Bari Weiss.

I listened in on a really great webinar today sponsored by Jewish Currents on the Holocaust and Gaza. In times like these I really appreciate my feisty Jewish dissident friends and family.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

If you ignore the violence against others, then the fallout is mainly Jewish kids getting beaten. All of it is awful.

3 crazy people acting on their own are the same as group attacks of seemingly sane, but strident, people attacking Jews? SMH.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Interesting development in my fam's political world.

The Jewish members of my family are all deeply upset with Israel, and have been for a long time. Indeed, our closest Israeli friends kids have all emigrated to the US and a couple of them work in businesses started by members of the family.

On the other hand, one of the Islamic members of the family posted a bunch of photos tonight of herself proudly waving a huge Israeli flag at the rally in Washington. And I understand why - her own birth mother, before she was adopted by my sister, was killed by Islamic terrorists. She empathizes very very deeply with the families of the people killed on Oct. 7.

I'm filing this in the category of, we need empathy for everyone.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

3 crazy people acting on their own are the same as group attacks of seemingly sane, but strident, people attacking Jews? SMH.

You really think Islamaphobia and bias against people from the Middle East is limited to three crazy people?

Really?

Remember, this isn't a competition, it's possible to be opposed to multiple forms of bigotry at once.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

You really think Islamaphobia and bias against people from the Middle East is limited to three crazy people?

Really?

Remember, this isn't a competition, it's possible to be opposed to multiple forms of bigotry at once.

I'm from a place with a very large Middle Eastern population so I do not see much of it. But of course I know there is a lot of it, especially in Trumpian circles.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

I'm from a place with a very large Middle Eastern population so I do not see much of it. But of course I know there is a lot of it, especially in Trumpian circles.

You should make friends with some of your Middle Eastern population and ask them about their experiences.

There were a bunch of very Islamaphobic signs, some of them genocidal, at the Israel rally yesterday. Here I think that genocidal stuff is a fringe, even if that fringe includes a bunch of billionaires; in Israel, of course, genocidal statements towards Palestinians are made by government ministers.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

3 crazy people acting on their own are the same as group attacks of seemingly sane, but strident, people attacking Jews? SMH.

Of course, I didn't say anything was "the same" as anything else. You said the attacks were "mainly" on Jews, and I pointed out that there have been many attacks on people other than Jews. Why do you have such a hard time with that?

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

If you ignore the violence against others, then the fallout is mainly Jewish kids getting beaten. All of it is awful.

Anti-Muslim reactions are vile. But it must be noted that if that sort of thing should become a significant trend, Jews will be some of the strongest defenders of Muslims’ right to exist unmolested and in peace. Jews walk the walk.

If one doubts the Jewish commitment to freedom, recall that Ira Glasser, head of the ACLU at the time, defended the rights of Nazis to march in Skokie.