Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

But some of them don't want her to be President specifically because of this.

TM

And OAN for Christmas I got a book of short stories written by Tom Hanks- I love him as an actor I think all the time so I really wanted to like his writing. Man cannot write, like the stories would never have made it out of the slush pile w/o the star name. Disappointed.

[Icky Thump]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Tell me how Bangkok is - I'm going to be there in 2 weeks.

I’ll update later. Here for 2 days then Chiang Mai then back. Midst tour now. Thailand is so inexpensive.

[Icky Thump]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I hear Doha is quite nice. Creepy in terms of naked opulence.

A family member who was there for a few weeks recently asked how they could have a mosque with actual gold leafing. The reply from a guide was, Because no one needs to steal.

That and they cut off your hand if you do.

Was just in the ultramodern empty airport to transfer. Ps I don’t think there’s a single traffic light or stop sign or yield sign in Bangkok.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Icky Thump

Ps I don’t think there’s a single traffic light or stop sign or yield sign in Bangkok.

My best memory is trying to inch our way across a 5 lane highway- couldn't even figure how to start- finally just walked next to a mom holding an infant and walking a 2 year old- she knew the score.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I feel like you like her, so, at best, you are refusing to listen to what I am saying and, at worst, are intentionally mischaracterizing it.

I am not blaming her. She is welcome to her opinion. She wasn't the only one pushing. I think there was a better way to handle it than to say, "There are multiple accusations of something that falls into the sexual harassment category, off with his head!" Take a fucking breath. Conduct a hearing/investigation, let him defend himself and then make a collective determination on whether he should keep his head.

If you don't think Gillibrand seized on this, at least partially, as a political opportunity for herself, you're not being honest with yourself.

TM

The idea of seizing something for political opportunity suggests that she is somehow insincere; I don't think that's right. You may disagree with her, you may diminish her arguments (I don't), but do you really this is not an issue she cares deeply about? She's been in the fray on every sexual assault issue in front of the Senate (the debates between her an Claire McCaskel on some of these issues are worth paying attention to). One of my friends has done a couple documentaries on rape in the military and on campus, and Gilli was very helpful on them, including in opening up doors to get them access.

Look, Franken clearly engaged in bad behavior, he's admitted it and apologized for it. There were also a lot (and I mean a lot) of allegations he didn't admit to but generally indicated he didn't remember. They were coming out in a consistent stream, and his attorney was trying to dismiss them because he was acting like an "entertainer" instead of a politician (should we start talking Harvey Weinstein and whats acceptable in entertainment here?)

If he had stuck around for the investigation, I suspect the incidents would have kept coming for a while. People started to cry "enough", and Gilli was definitely at the lead of those within the Senate, but I suspect Franken also realized that resigning was the way to get it to stop and retain some dignity. And its convenient to blame the people calling him on the shit instead of himself for doing all the shit.

I'm fine with giving people some room, but I also think it was clear that Franken was going down and it was a relief that he chose to cut it short.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

And OAN for Christmas I got a book of short stories written by Tom Hanks- I love him as an actor I think all the time so I really wanted to like his writing. Man cannot write, like the stories would never gave made it out of the slush pile w/o the star name. Disappointed.

Hey, you dissin' my family?

(Yeah, even we don't read that stuff, but it makes him happy).

[Adder]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Either way, I'm not sure why you or any of them is resistant to an investigation or letting him have his day at a hearing if the outcome would be the same.

Yes you are, you just don't like it.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan

Anne Helen Petersen at Buzzfeed is one of my favorite longform authors, and she did a piece on student debt a few days ago.

It's not the first, or the last, but it is really compelling and does an awesome job at showing how fucked over we have become in thinking that we live in an every-man-for-himself society rather than moving together to invest in the collective good.

That's a damn good article.

Generally, we need to break the stranglehold that big education is using to extort money from kids. At the same time, we need to get rid of the current student loan system.

Credentialism has gone way too far in this country. Kids study for the test so they can satisfy the criteria demanded by HR departments. Every position needs some moronic certification or degree, and most these certifications and degrees aren't worth shit. They're entirely academic and largely inapplicable to what one is doing in the real world. And yet, corporate America, lazy as it is, uses these silly measures to winnow out applicants.

Peter Thiel is wrong about a lot, but he's dead right in suggesting that many bright kids should bag college and go straight into the workforce. Tech seems to embrace the idea of talent over credentials as well. Hopefully, this trend will continue.

As to student loans, they should be dischargeable up to 50% in bankruptcy. No 18 year old should have to suffer a miserable existence because when she was immature she was allowed to take out a loan for $150k for a degree in social work or modern dance, or because she decided to do the right thing and get a STEM degree only to find that everyone else did that same thing and she found herself graduating into a job market glutted with STEM degree holders.

When the loans become dischargeable, you'll see the Feds act more prudently in lending. You'll see the private lenders exit the market entirely. This will force Big Education to provide value, rather than sushi bars in the student union. This might, if we're lucky, compel Big Education to run like an actual corporation -- to fire the dead weight on its employment rolls, stop wasteful spending on shiny new dorms to attract more govt backed loan money, and refocus on providing education at a reasonable price.

This will, of course, require a house cleaning of most of the management at universities as well. Having dealt with education professionals on projects, I can say, and would probably find much agreement here, that there is nothing more dangerous and clueless than a lifelong educator with an MBA. These people should be barred from all budgets and all funds save perhaps petty cash.

I believe Warren may make student loans dischargeable for at least millenials. That's one of the reasons that I like her, despite having strong reservations about many of her other policy prescriptions.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Icky Thump

Was just in the ultramodern empty airport to transfer. Ps I don’t think there’s a single traffic light or stop sign or yield sign in Bangkok.

My family member told me the airport people apologized profusely that they did not have a BMW or Mercedes to ferry them to the hotel. They were embarrassed they had to provide some lesser SUV.

Residents get something like $200k every new year's day. Like Alaska... only 20X better.

You fly the A380? Or the G5?

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan

I went to an early event in January last year and then a few more during the heat of the campaign. I had a selfie taken with him right before I voted for him the first day of early voting. The man NEVER stopped talking to people and shaking hands. It was amazing to watch. And he actually seemed to listen.

Again, Anne Helen Petersen:

My sister, who is an introvert and the last person in the world I'd ever think would do such things, was so taken by the campaign she knocked on over 2000 doors and registered over 100 voters, personally taking 8 to the polls and taking one to the Secretary of State's office and then the county to work out some registration issues.

I only managed to knock on about 100 or so (I was also volunteering for the Texas Voting Rights project), but from what I saw, it was an efficient, well run organization, insofar as predominantly volunteer organization can be efficient. His strategy was to focus on the non-voters, and it almost worked.

Obviously, the last two plus years have motivated a lot of people to not be complacent about elections, and progressives in Texas have been waiting for decades to find someone to rally behind. There have been a few other attempts, but nothing like this.

TM is right. I'd not heard Beto speak or debate. I was going off his platform, which looked like it was all lovely things for all lovely people, and quotes, some interviews I'd read, and articles about him.

He still seems too polished to not have had aid of consultants. There are pros behind this guy. They might not be taking salaries, but there's some assistance.

Calling him a McCandidate may be an overstep, but I still don't think he has legs in a national campaign. We're not entering a situation in which a somewhat green candidate like Obama could offer hope as a counter to eight years' of Cheney-like darkness.

Bush/Cheney was the Empire. Obama was the Rebel Alliance. Trump is not the Empire striking back. He's like Jabba the Hut and a pack of crazed Boba Fet-like mercenaries somehow overran the Death Star and took control, and neither the Rebels nor the Empire are sure how to regain control of it. This time around, I think people will eschew "new" in favor of "steady" and "adult." Harris and Warren are progressive, but also pros. They've institutional knowledge adequate to stabilize things.

All this is offered with the giant neon caveat that I Confidently Said Hillary Would Beat Trump (by 9 points in PA).

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

The idea of seizing something for political opportunity suggests that she is somehow insincere; I don't think that's right. You may disagree with her, you may diminish her arguments (I don't), but do you really this is not an issue she cares deeply about? She's been in the fray on every sexual assault issue in front of the Senate (the debates between her an Claire McCaskel on some of these issues are worth paying attention to). One of my friends has done a couple documentaries on rape in the military and on campus, and Gilli was very helpful on them, including in opening up doors to get them access.

I don't think anything I've said indicates that I think she was being insincere. I think it is an important issue to her. But I also think that (i) she wanted to make this her thing and forcing Franken out was part of that and (ii) I don't think she was particularly thoughtful about Franken in particular.

If I ask whether or not Franken should be heard and investigated, and if the behavior warrants banishment (as compared to other types of harassment), and you respond, "I can't tell my son it's okay to touch someone here, but not here," you are giving me a bullshit answer. Period. I watched her do it. She wanted to own the issue, but she didn't want to deal with any nuance whatsoever. Maybe that's not particular to her; maybe that's just what politicians do. But refusing to engage in a thoughtful discussion about how we deal with different levels or types of harassment and leading the charge to oust someone no matter what, is not what I want in a politician.*

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Look, Franken clearly engaged in bad behavior, he's admitted it and apologized for it. There were also a lot (and I mean a lot) of allegations he didn't admit to but generally indicated he didn't remember.

Yeah. It's incredibly difficult to remember circumstances surrounding completely anonymous accusations. To the extent they weren't I believe Franken was completely respectful of the accusers and did not simply dismiss them. I do think he wanted an opportunity to dig in to them a bit and address them. He was not given that opportunity.

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

They were coming out in a consistent stream, and his attorney was trying to dismiss them because he was acting like an "entertainer" instead of a politician (should we start talking Harvey Weinstein and whats acceptable in entertainment here?)

Are you fucking kidding with this shit?

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

If he had stuck around for the investigation, I suspect the incidents would have kept coming for a while. People started to cry "enough", and Gilli was definitely at the lead of those within the Senate, but I suspect Franken also realized that resigning was the way to get it to stop and retain some dignity. And its convenient to blame the people calling him on the shit instead of himself for doing all the shit.

You say this like you're not just redrafting your entire argument. Franken clearly wanted an inquiry and a chance to address the allegations formally. Gillibrand (and others, but her, the most and loudest) didn't want to give him that opportunity. I think that's wrong. You don't. I honestly don't understand how anyone (especially on this board) can be advocating for punishing people without giving them some sort of opportunity to get to the bottom of the truth and an opportunity to defend themselves.

Notice I have yet to defend Franken. You keep saying I'm blaming Gillibrand. That's kinda true, I guess. But I'm blaming her for trying to sweep the guy out before an ethics inquiry was carried out. That's what she tried to do and what she helped achieve.

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

I'm fine with giving people some room, but I also think it was clear that Franken was going down and it was a relief that he chose to cut it short.

It is only clear that he was going down because Gillibrand and a chorus of others decided that was what was going to happen. If Gillibrand and Bernie and Harris had said, "These allegations are extremely concerning. Let's conduct a thorough investigation before rushing to declare our colleague persona non grata. Make no mistake, he will not receive special treatment as a Democrat, friend, or colleague. Etc., etc., etc." it would only be clear that he was going down based on the results of the inquiry.

TM

*That said, if she's the nominee, she'll get all of my support.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Adder

Yes you are, you just don't like it.

Fair enough, asshole. I don't like it and I think you're wrong to apply different standards of what constitutes justice based on what a person's job is.

TM

[LessinSF]

Originally Posted by Icky Thump

I’ll update later. Here for 2 days then Chiang Mai then back. Midst tour now. Thailand is so inexpensive.

Yes. You might even be surprised how cheap the hookers, ladyboys, and 13 year-olds are. Go to Patpong or Soi Cowbow if you want to see 60 something expats is all their sleazy glory.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I don't think anything I've said indicates that I think she was being insincere. I think it is an important issue to her. But I also think that (i) she wanted to make this her thing and forcing Franken out was part of that and (ii) I don't think she was particularly thoughtful about Franken in particular.

Look, I'm not going to address all your points, because who has the time.

You were viewing her as an opportunist. I think she, like Franken and every other politician, has done some opportunistic things in the past - her past sins on immigration are the ones that actually bother me most. But here I think she was advancing something she believes in deeply. I think her anger was righteous, not opportunistic.

Yeah. It's incredibly difficult to remember circumstances surrounding completely anonymous accusations. To the extent they weren't I believe Franken was completely respectful of the accusers and did not simply dismiss them. I do think he wanted an opportunity to dig in to them a bit and address them. He was not given that opportunity.

Are you fucking kidding with this shit?

There were multiple non-anonymous accusations. Some of them looked potentially politically opportune and motivated by people with partisan axes to grind. Others didn't. Then there were the anonymous ones - and, yes, we can't take those as seriously without more information of some sort.

You say this like you're not just redrafting your entire argument. Franken clearly wanted an inquiry and a chance to address the allegations formally. Gillibrand (and others, but her, the most and loudest) didn't want to give him that opportunity. I think that's wrong. You don't. I honestly don't understand how anyone (especially on this board) can be advocating for punishing people without giving them some sort of opportunity to get to the bottom of the truth and an opportunity to defend themselves.

Nobody made him resign. Franken could have done what Northam is doing. He would have had to have borne some slings and arrows, and he'd probably have a lot fewer supporters today, because it would have been ugly.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Why the fuck aren't we talking about this national emergency bullshit.

We're suddenly a 1960s style banana republic. Fuck it, do two bit Latin American dictators even declare states of emergency any more?