I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

And just cause I'm on a rage, look at John McCain. Usually one of the Rs with the most integrity. What did he do during his campaign? He sucked up to Trump. He took cheap shots for the peanut gallery. He tried to hide every sign he had ever been willing to compromise or had taken positions that were out of step with the radicals. The GOP punishes those who try to show some integrity. It is a bad thing.

I can't fix that for them.

And it looks like TM was just raging on this on FB, so I'm going back to posting "2" alot.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Just an example right now: Chaffetz is using his role as lead congressional investigator not to review ethical conflicts of incoming Trump administration officials but to investigate the ethics agency head that is criticizing Trump. If none of the Rs in Congress care about this issue enough to call Chaffetz on it, and indeed if they praise him for it, no amount of railing by Dems is going to matter. It's below the radar for voters.

Either Republican elected officials choose to have some degree of integrity or they don't. Right now, the GOP is a celebration of a lack of integrity.

Voters -- Democrats, but voters -- need to organize around issues like this. Call their Congressmen, etc. This doesn't happen spontaneously. Democrats need to make it happen. Not by "railing," by which I think you mean being interviewed on TV. By organizing. Copy the Tea Party and do it.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Voters -- Democrats, but voters -- need to organize around issues like this. Call their Congressmen, etc. This doesn't happen spontaneously. Democrats need to make it happen. Not by "railing," by which I think you mean being interviewed on TV. By organizing. Copy the Tea Party and do it.

Sure, and when you and I are done calling our Reps, who will all say, oh, yeah, I'm right there with you, we can call to Chaffetz' or Ryan's office, where they will record another call from 617 or 415 against what they are doing and cackle loud and long.

[SEC_Chick]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Voters -- Democrats, but voters -- need to organize around issues like this. Call their Congressmen, etc. This doesn't happen spontaneously. Democrats need to make it happen. Not by "railing," by which I think you mean being interviewed on TV. By organizing. Copy the Tea Party and do it.

It is amusing to me that not one person has considered that the Rs were doing exactly what their constituents wanted them to, and that is why they are not paying the price politically for their tactics.

Likewise, no one has postulated that, perhaps, they way that Democrats go about their business, was in any way a proximate cause of the loss of the Senate, House, Presidency, and numerous state legislatures and Governorships.

I know not many of you live in deep red states, but the idea of anyone mobilizing voters to hold R's accountable in many areas of the country is laughable. Especially when it comes from people who think that McCain used to be filled with integrity and that he's the one that was punished for such. Isn't that inconsistent with the common agreement that everybody, including the GOP Senators, hates Ted Cruz? Lindsay Graham just got around to apologizing for his killing Cruz on the Senate floor joke. I don't think my Congressman (who sucks, btw) would be persuaded by calls to act any differently. My calls regarding his participation in the GOP failure theater and pointless show votes that don't really matter, but then capitulating on matters of substance seem to have fallen on deaf ears.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by SEC_Chick

It is amusing to me that not one person has considered that the Rs were doing exactly what their constituents wanted them to, and that is why they are not paying the price politically for their tactics.

Likewise, no one has postulated that, perhaps, they way that Democrats go about their business, was in any way a proximate cause of the loss of the Senate, House, Presidency, and numerous state legislatures and Governorships.

I know not many of you live in deep red states, but the idea of anyone mobilizing voters to hold R's accountable in many areas of the country is laughable. Especially when it comes from people who think that McCain used to be filled with integrity and that he's the one that was punished for such. Isn't that inconsistent with the common agreement that everybody, including the GOP Senators, hates Ted Cruz? Lindsay Graham just got around to apologizing for his killing Cruz on the Senate floor joke. I don't think my Congressman (who sucks, btw) would be persuaded by calls to act any differently. My calls regarding his participation in the GOP failure theater and pointless show votes that don't really matter, but then capitulating on matters of substance seem to have fallen on deaf ears.

You are confirming my point. Rs don't value integrity. They applaud Chaffetz. Until that changes, we will not have anyone on the R side meaningfully stand up to trump.

[SEC_Chick]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

You are confirming my point. Rs don't value integrity. They applaud Chaffetz. Until that changes, we will not have anyone on the R side meaningfully stand up to trump.

I was getting the sense that you were more upset about GOP obstructionism. You will receive no argument to me that it is shameful the way that some Rs have thrown out their principles in support of a man who advocates and stands for much of what they used to claim to despise.

That has been the curious side of this election. I lost respect for Cruz and others I used to respect, and have been increasingly finding myself on the side of those I would have previously designated RINOs (mainly McCain and Graham).

That said, this is all still a bit weird for me. Trump is not a Republican and does not really seem to share traditional Republican values. He has an established history of supporting and giving $ to Democrats in far greater numbers. Unfortunately, the GOP owns him now.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by SEC_Chick

Trump is not a Republican and does not really seem to share traditional Republican values. He has an established history of supporting and giving $ to Democrats in far greater numbers. Unfortunately, the GOP owns him now.

This is garbage. I had this argument with Slave a few weeks ago. Sebby also parrots this bullshit.

You can call him whatever you want. It matters none. I don't care if at one point he voted for Jimmy Carter. The only thing that matters is what positions he takes as a Presidential candidate and now President Elect.

My best understanding of Trump is that he is whoever the people in whatever room he's currently in want him to be. When his whole world was NYC, he pretended he cared about things New Yorkers care about. Now that his "room" consists of the idiots in this country who like him, he is whatever they want him to be. And the people who like him are small-minded Republicans. Therefore he will argue that he's against abortion and take steps to curtail it, he will argue that Obama is not a legitimate President, he will appoint rightwing assholes to every cabinet position, he will embrace Breitbart and other bullshit white supremacist trash, he will destroy healthcare for people because that's what people who adore him want him to do. And that's all that matters.

The Republicans you mention who some might have thought had a bit of integrity in the past have exposed themselves as political cowards. They were against him when they thought he'd bring the Party down. Now they suck his tiny dick because they're scared of what his Vienna sausage-like Twitter fingers can do.

So, pretend all you want that he isn't a Republican or a conservative or whatever. But you're right. You guys own him now. The small-minded idiots who make up the vast majority of the Republican Party love him. The question now is, based on where your party actually is, are you a Republican?

TM

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by SEC_Chick

I was getting the sense that you were more upset about GOP obstructionism. You will receive no argument to me that it is shameful the way that some Rs have thrown out their principles in support of a man who advocates and stands for much of what they used to claim to despise.

That has been the curious side of this election. I lost respect for Cruz and others I used to respect, and have been increasingly finding myself on the side of those I would have previously designated RINOs (mainly McCain and Graham).

That said, this is all still a bit weird for me. Trump is not a Republican and does not really seem to share traditional Republican values. He has an established history of supporting and giving $ to Democrats in far greater numbers. Unfortunately, the GOP owns him now.

He personifies what Republicans look like to me.

Over the years, I haven't surrendered my core principles or radically shifted my views on the issues. If anything, I'm more to the left now than ever (and remember, my resume includes the campaigns of Ted Kennedy and Jesse Jackson).

But, as I age I put more and more weight in integrity and honesty than ideology. And I can find a lot of Democrats I'd hold up as honest and having integrity, but there are only a very, very small handful of Republicans, most of them not in elected office (like McMullin) I'd give that to.

[SEC_Chick]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

This is garbage. I had this argument with Slave a few weeks ago. Sebby also parrots this bullshit.

You can call him whatever you want. It matters none. I don't care if at one point he voted for Jimmy Carter. The only thing that matters is what positions he takes as a Presidential candidate and now President Elect.

My best understanding of Trump is that he is whoever the people in whatever room he's currently in want him to be. When his whole world was NYC, he pretended he cared about things New Yorkers care about. Now that his "room" consists of the idiots in this country who like him, he is whatever they want him to be. And the people who like him are small-minded Republicans. Therefore he will argue that he's against abortion and take steps to curtail it, he will argue that Obama is not a legitimate President, he will appoint rightwing assholes to every cabinet position, he will embrace Breitbart and other bullshit white supremacist trash, he will destroy healthcare for people because that's what people who adore him want him to do. And that's all that matters.

The Republicans you mention who some might have thought had a bit of integrity in the past have exposed themselves as political cowards. They were against him when they thought he'd bring the Party down. Now they suck his tiny dick because they're scared of what his Vienna sausage-like Twitter fingers can do.

So, pretend all you want that he isn't a Republican or a conservative or whatever. But you're right. You guys own him now. The small-minded idiots who make up the vast majority of the Republican Party love him. The question now is, based on where your party actually is, are you a Republican?

TM

You are absolutely right about Trump and the despicable people who defend him.

The moment that really made it sink in that I while I still consider myself to be a conservative, there is no way I could possibly call myself a Republican was the Access Hollywood video, and how few Rs were willing to condemn Trump's words and conduct. That failure reflected on them and their lack of dignity. I could not in good conscience identify with such cowards.

I have thought about it. I had pollsters call, and I identify as conservative, but as independent. I refuse to answer when they try to push it down to a binary choice. In November, I voted for some libertarians for some local offices, and there were some local races in which I did not vote, because I did not see an acceptable option. In TX, you don't formally register as one party, they just ask which primary ballot you want. I will likely still ask for the R ballot, mainly because for statewide races, the Republican primary is effectively the election.

Now the list of Rs I'll give money to is pretty short and is limited to people who opposed Trump from beginning to end. Like Ben Sasse and Mike Lee.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by SEC_Chick

You are absolutely right about Trump and the despicable people who defend him.

The moment that really made it sink in that I while I still consider myself to be a conservative, there is no way I could possibly call myself a Republican was the Access Hollywood video, and how few Rs were willing to condemn Trump's words and conduct. That failure reflected on them and their lack of dignity. I could not in good conscience identify with such cowards.

I have thought about it. I had pollsters call, and I identify as conservative, but as independent. I refuse to answer when they try to push it down to a binary choice. In November, I voted for some libertarians for some local offices, and there were some local races in which I did not vote, because I did not see an acceptable option. In TX, you don't formally register as one party, they just ask which primary ballot you want. I will likely still ask for the R ballot, mainly because for statewide races, the Republican primary is effectively the election.

Now the list of Rs I'll give money to is pretty short and is limited to people who opposed Trump from beginning to end. Like Ben Sasse and Mike Lee.

We're going to disagree on almost every policy position out there, but you'll have more influence in fixing the fundamental problem here than I will.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Sure, and when you and I are done calling our Reps, who will all say, oh, yeah, I'm right there with you, we can call to Chaffetz' or Ryan's office, where they will record another call from 617 or 415 against what they are doing and cackle loud and long.

The point I was trying to make is that the party needs to organize instead of just railing on the TV, not that you and I should make phone calls.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by SEC_Chick

It is amusing to me that not one person has considered that the Rs were doing exactly what their constituents wanted them to, and that is why they are not paying the price politically for their tactics.

Isn't it much more complicated than that? Representatives have a whole lot of constituents, some of whom are more vocal and engaged than others. The squeaky wheels get the grease. I think that GOP Representatives have a lot of constituents who are Democrats, and they have a lot of constituents who are unaffiliated or otherwise on the fence. Maybe if they heard more from the former, and the issues got press attention heard by the latter, it would change their perceptions of what their constituents.

Likewise, no one has postulated that, perhaps, they way that Democrats go about their business, was in any way a proximate cause of the loss of the Senate, House, Presidency, and numerous state legislatures and Governorships.

Obviously it was. Have I not complained about that? At the same time, we are coming off an election in which Democrats gained seats in the House, gained seats in the Senate, and won the popular vote. One can go too far in positing that the current legislative arrangements reflect public sentiment.

I know not many of you live in deep red states, but the idea of anyone mobilizing voters to hold R's accountable in many areas of the country is laughable. Especially when it comes from people who think that McCain used to be filled with integrity and that he's the one that was punished for such. Isn't that inconsistent with the common agreement that everybody, including the GOP Senators, hates Ted Cruz? Lindsay Graham just got around to apologizing for his killing Cruz on the Senate floor joke. I don't think my Congressman (who sucks, btw) would be persuaded by calls to act any differently. My calls regarding his participation in the GOP failure theater and pointless show votes that don't really matter, but then capitulating on matters of substance seem to have fallen on deaf ears.

With the current Senate, you only need to convince three Republican Senators to make a difference.

And part of the point of organizing is strategic, not tactical -- it's shaping the narrative of the next two and four years, for the elections that follow. There are good and bad ways to lose.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

The point I was trying to make is that the party needs to organize instead of just railing on the TV, not that you and I should make phone calls.

I have become that crotchety uncle who rails at all the kids at the Holiday dinner table that back in my day when people thought of the Democratic party they thought about me and my buddies knocking on their door or handing out coffee at the polling places, not someone down in DC, and why aren't the young'uns members of their local party apparatus?

I think its working. A couple of them having joined local committees.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Isn't it much more complicated than that? Representatives have a whole lot of constituents, some of whom are more vocal and engaged than others. The squeaky wheels get the grease. I think that GOP Representatives have a lot of constituents who are Democrats, and they have a lot of constituents who are unaffiliated or otherwise on the fence. Maybe if they heard more from the former, and the issues got press attention heard by the latter, it would change their perceptions of what their constituents.

Demographically, this isn't as true as it used to be. A huge number of Rs are in safe seats where there are just not that many Democrats and many of the Independents are crazier than the Republicans.

But there are a few very, very important seats where what you say is true.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

I have become that crotchety uncle who rails at all the kids at the Holiday dinner table that back in my day when people thought of the Democratic party they thought about me and my buddies knocking on their door or handing out coffee at the polling places, not someone down in DC, and why aren't the young'uns members of their local party apparatus?

I think its working. A couple of them having joined local committees.

For all of the bitching about it, the Pantsuit Republic seems to have mobilized quite a few people on their own. I'm a member of the national, Texas and Houston groups, though I don't really do much except scroll every now and then to see what's going on. And I've seen quite a number of people who had no involvement whatsoever take initiative and organize. It's actually quite remarkable. There's a group right now outside of Ted Cruz's office here in Houston. Apparently the staff would rather lock themselves in than talk to a bunch of middle aged women about healthcare.

Also, I don't think Trump won Texas because of Trump. I think he won because of the R. I don't see that much fawning over him down here. Most of the Rs I know who voted for him (including some family members) did so because of party identity. There are almost two Republican parties down here: more traditional (and reasonable) Republicans and Tea Party / Trump types. When the legislature is in session (as sadly, it is now) the dichotomy is pretty clear. And every single reasonable R legislator has told me that there is a constant primary threat against them on the Tea Party side.

I don't generally give a shit about why Hillary lost some random guy in Wisconsin or Michigan as I do why the Rs took Texas over 20 years ago and haven't let go. I go through small Texas towns and know that the hardships borne by manufacturing jobs leaving or coal mines shutting down are not at all borne here. I know a shit ton of it has to do with the redistricting in 2004 (and the Ds knew that too, which is why they fled the state to avoid a quorum). But now I think it comes down to Cowboys vs. Giants*. Teams were picked and no matter how bad your $72 million quarterback sucks, you're still going to root for the Texans in their slaughter on Saturday.

*I was going to use the Washington team, but that name is repulsive to me. The Cowboys are repulsive to me too, but that has to do with the sides I picked (or was assigned) decades ago.