Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

the same ignorance is the well-spring but in one case isn't it "this kid might SHOOT ME!" and in the other "a kid like that is likely to be carrying dope and getting him off the streets is going to make everyone safer?"

Not really, no. In both cases, it's fear that the Black man (or boy) is violent and means to do us harm. The only difference is that in the suburbs of St. Louis you need a badge to kill a Black youth and in Florida it's just open season.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I like that you zero'd in on the one example that makes you the most uncomfortable. But let's talk about it.

If you see a group of teenagers who are dressed poorly, I imagine that you cross the street whether they are black, white, hispanic, asian, or any combination. If you're telling me you only cross the street when they're black, I'd probably think you are an asshole (and a liar).

But let's change your hypothetical. I'm a black (albeit way too light-skinned), grown up. If you saw me (and just me) walking toward you in sweats at night (like I was coming from the fucking gym), would you cross the street? Would you do that if a similarly-aged white partner from a law firm in the exact same outfit with the exact same build approached you in the exact same circumstances? If you were a woman, would you clutch your purse or your child a little tighter for one and not the other? Would you lock your car doors with your kids in the back?

Are all the instances when I experience that bullshit, based on personal experience of being attacked by a black man? Or do you think that's based on fear that's passed on constantly in a myriad of different ways (including those I listed above)?

TM

I was in Central Park last month, somewhere in that woods walk at the north end. You can be secluded in there, which isn't a typical feeling for NYC. Anyways, I turned at one point on the path and coming at me were 3 young black men. I felt a bit of apprehension, ain't no road to cross, but I might have felt the same if they were white. Then the one says "let's sing show tunes!" and then they started to. Boy did I feel sheepish.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

I could probably recount dozens of these vignettes, hundreds if I really tried. They are generally from the 1970s and 1980s. I think it's getting better.....

The way some of the outright racists change can be interesting. I had an uncle who was deeply racist, and made a regular career out of keeping blacks (referred to by the N word) out of his union. He and my father had screaming battles over it, to no effect.

Then his daughter is dating an Italian guy who beats her up. My uncle beats him up sufficiently so he stays away from her. Next guy his daughter dates is black and treats her well. Presto, Uncle wants to integrate the union. He can't figure out why he had so much hate in him before.

But after that, don't get him started on those Italians....

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

You'd think it should be easier for white folks to realize what they're being taught than black folks. Shows how blind we are to the built-in biases.

Not surprising at all -- If you grew up with being taught this way, it's water.

Some of my favorites are the "bad neighborhood" that you're told not to to go near, which often redlines half a city as places whites shouldn't go, the "where is he from" question that really means, is he black, one you highlighted, the "don't dress like a thug" meaning, dress like a white boy, etc.

Any time people are segregated fear is taught of the other group in a million little ways. Segregation and stereotypes are two of the biggest weapons.

Most of my experience with this sort of shit is from people who were not segregated, or at least not so completely that they did not have plenty of opportunities to deal with black people as people, rather than as stereotypes. The SiL I talked about grew up in Yonkers. The uncle's kids mostly went to my public school, which was about 1/3 black (though certainly there were black areas of the city).

Some time ago, I was walking thru Chinatown and Fisherman's Wharf in SF with a bunch of martial arts instructors I trained with/under. They are all black, mostly muslim, and just generally an energetic group of people -- loud (not obnoxiously), dressed colorfully, fairly big physically and with enormous presence.

I cannot tell you how many people looked at me as if I was in danger -- I was surrounded by black men! It was astounding, especially since I had never been so safe in my entire life.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

The way some of the outright racists change can be interesting. I had an uncle who was deeply racist, and made a regular career out of keeping blacks (referred to by the N word) out of his union. He and my father had screaming battles over it, to no effect.

Then his daughter is dating an Italian guy who beats her up. My uncle beats him up sufficiently so he stays away from her. Next guy his daughter dates is black and treats her well. Presto, Uncle wants to integrate the union. He can't figure out why he had so much hate in him before.

But after that, don't get him started on those Italians....

OTOH, you should have heard the names my parents, particularly my father, called my sister when she was dating a Puerto Rican. And they considered themselves tolerant -- and, relatively speaking, they were (kingdom of the blind....) -- because they had actually been willing to talk to, and go to the home of, the one black family that ever moved into my neighborhood.

Sometimes I hate everyone.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

OTOH, you should have heard the names my parents, particularly my father, called my sister when she was dating a Puerto Rican. And they considered themselves tolerant -- and, relatively speaking, they were (kingdom of the blind....) -- because they had actually been willing to talk to, and go to the home of, the one black family that ever moved into my neighborhood.

Sometimes I hate everyone.

I live in a tiny suburb that is lousy with liberals. we vote 70% for everything that the Dems push. we are the second highest % of towns in Michigan for folks having a second college degree. We are evolved motherfuckers. Metro D is the second most segregated area (Hi Chicago!) in the country. Right next to us is a largely black suburb.

We just got a "Next Door" neighborhood chat room. For years cars get riffled when they are left unlocked. Every so often the police catch a kid doing it. But since the NextDoor chat room came on these knuckleheads believe a crime spree has broken out because they are suddenly aware of the car thefts (of unlocked cars). And every thread includes the question, "do we know where the thief is from?" Which, as GGG suggests, isn't the real question being asked.

But the most fun was when a white kid* from my town was caught doing it and all these libs expressed the shock that evidenced their actual assumptions.

*of course the black kids from the next town also do it. Meanwhile the answer is "lock your fucking car doors."

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

The SiL I talked about grew up in Yonkers.

Hey, the Italian guy was from Yonkers! Maybe they're related?

When I was growing up, there was a street in my Father's old neighborhood that was the dividing line. North of Dyckman, 98% white, 2% American Indian (different story). South of Dyckman, 80-85% black and hispanic, with a smattering of whites (Irish) right near the line.

It was dangerous for a black person north of Dyckman. The "bad neighborhood" was south of Dyckman. Also referred to as the "changing" neighborhood.

Certainly, the schools in those neighborhoods were mixed, and there were other places that weren't segregated, noticeably the park in the area and one church in particular. But for the most part, there was a very bright line.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

I live in a tiny suburb that is lousy with liberals. we vote 70% for everything that the Dems push. we are the second highest % of towns in Michigan for folks having a second college degree. We are evolved motherfuckers. Metro D is the second most segregated area (Hi Chicago!) in the country. Right next to us is a largely black suburb.

We just got a "Next Door" neighborhood chat room. For years cars get riffled when they are left unlocked. Every so often the police catch a kid doing it. But since the NextDoor chat room came on these knuckleheads believe a crime spree has broken out because they are suddenly aware of the car thefts (of unlocked cars). And every thread includes the question, "do we know where the thief is from?" Which, as GGG suggests, isn't the real question being asked.

But the most fun was when a white kid* from my town was caught doing it and all these libs expressed the shock that evidenced their actual assumptions.

*of course the black kids from the next town also do it. Meanwhile the answer is "lock your fucking car doors."

You went from the statement in my post, that my parents were "relatively tolerant," to talking about "libs".

My parents were anything but liberals. Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Reagan..... You apparently assumed that someone who thinks he is tolerant, but is actually not, must be a "lib". Because, you know, libs are dishonest like that.


That said -- it's good to see that people have stupid biases other than those that are race-based.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Hey, the Italian guy was from Yonkers! Maybe they're related?

When I was growing up, there was a street in my Father's old neighborhood that was the dividing line. North of Dyckman, 98% white, 2% American Indian (different story). South of Dyckman, 80-85% black and hispanic, with a smattering of whites (Irish) right near the line.

It was dangerous for a black person north of Dyckman. The "bad neighborhood" was south of Dyckman. Also referred to as the "changing" neighborhood.

Certainly, the schools in those neighborhoods were mixed, and there were other places that weren't segregated, noticeably the park in the area and one church in particular. But for the most part, there was a very bright line.

This is true.

We used to go to the Italian section of the Bronx every once in awhile, where my parents lived before moving to the 'burbs. One time I saw four white kids start beating on a black kid -- all maybe 12 years old. They were hitting him with a chain, because he had crossed the wrong street. He pulled a knife, and that's how he was able to get away. All the old guys sat around laughing about the "little nigger with a knife."

I'm starting to get depressed, honestly.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

You went from the statement in my post, that my parents were "relatively tolerant," to talking about "libs".

My parents were anything but liberals. Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Reagan..... You apparently assumed that someone who thinks he is tolerant, but is actually not, must be a "lib". Because, you know, libs are dishonest like that.


That said -- it's good to see that people have stupid biases other than those that are race-based.

I just wanted to post the point. I didn't mean to imply I was adding to your point. I do believe that several posters here have racial issues (as almost all Americans do) while posting from a position of complete God head

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

I just wanted to post the point. I didn't mean to imply I was adding to your point. I do believe that several posters here have racial issues (as almost all Americans do) while posting from a position of complete God head

Every single poster here, including TM, has subconscious prejudices about people who are not like them.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

I liked the part of Obama's speech where he reached out to conservatives by talking about being an immigrant from Kenya.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

I was in Central Park last month, somewhere in that woods walk at the north end. You can be secluded in there, which isn't a typical feeling for NYC. Anyways, I turned at one point on the path and coming at me were 3 young black men. I felt a bit of apprehension, ain't no road to cross, but I might have felt the same if they were white. Then the one says "let's sing show tunes!" and they starting to. Boy did I feel sheepish.

This reminds of a story that Ralph Ellison tells in Going To The Territory (?). He was going door-to-door for some job in a miserable tenement in a black neighborhood, and he gets to one door and can hear that there's a huge argument inside that apartment. He's scared and thinks about getting out of there, but he stands and listens and realizes that it's a couple of guys who work backstage at the Met and they're arguing about opera.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

I live in a tiny suburb that is lousy with liberals. we vote 70% for everything that the Dems push. we are the second highest % of towns in Michigan for folks having a second college degree. We are evolved motherfuckers. Metro D is the second most segregated area (Hi Chicago!) in the country. Right next to us is a largely black suburb.

We just got a "Next Door" neighborhood chat room. For years cars get riffled when they are left unlocked. Every so often the police catch a kid doing it. But since the NextDoor chat room came on these knuckleheads believe a crime spree has broken out because they are suddenly aware of the car thefts (of unlocked cars). And every thread includes the question, "do we know where the thief is from?" Which, as GGG suggests, isn't the real question being asked.

But the most fun was when a white kid* from my town was caught doing it and all these libs expressed the shock that evidenced their actual assumptions.

*of course the black kids from the next town also do it. Meanwhile the answer is "lock your fucking car doors."

The people who go on and on about crime on NextDoor are miserable, whether they live in Michigan or California. It's better to just ignore them.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

Not surprising at all -- If you grew up with being taught this way, it's water.

think you whiffed here sonny.