Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I understand people's criticism of Obama, for the most part. But I don't know how many of the points you outlined above are stated as if you just arrived to this country yesterday from some weird place in which you do not know anything about what is and isn't possible.

I wanted him to be way left of where he ended up being, but I remember that he didn't run on a way left platform. I wanted him to pass significant health care reform, but realized that that shit was not fucking possible. I wanted him to tell Netanyahoooo to sit down and shut the fuck up every once in awhile, etc., etc. etc. But I am not insane. And if he went too far left on anything, the voting public, which is made up of children, would have thrown a fit and he would have lost even the Democrats who wanted to get shit done.

I don't agree with everything the man has done, but to act like yesterday was about specific issues with people and not this sort of general malaise that will hang over this country due to a recovering economy (yeah, more jobs, but all shitty, low-paying jobs), a non-Ebola crisis (at least in the US), trouble with ISIS that hasn't affected anyone even indirectly (who doesn't serve), and various school and other mass shootings, etc., is just plain bullshit.

I'm with Maher. Democrats should start ignoring polls and selling the good shit they've done. The polls will move in your direction because people are stupid and are programmed to repeat what they've seen over and over again. Stop running away from your actual accomplisments.

TM

Let me start by saying that he lost me over Gitmo and the NSA's "let's spy on everybody, just in case" program. After his failure to deliver on those two points, he would have had to get just about everything else he talked about accomplished for me to be at all pro-Obama. Instead, he has been one of the more "Imperial" presidents in a generation.

On healthcare, he should have been taking it to the people. If he had made his plan more publicly available and understandable, he would have sold more people. He would have lost, ultimately, but people would know what was at stake and you wouldn't have people like Hank focusing on the fact that their ox got gored.

If Obama had been more forthcoming, more public, then more people would be more pissed off at the Republican obstruction that has been going on for the last 6 years and yesterday would have gone differently. Instead, he held himself above the fray, and people felt like they were being condescended to (because, well, they were).

He ran as a man for the people. He's governed as one who finds the people to be an annoyance at best. I'm a smart guy. When my President starts acting like he needn't explain his program because I wouldn't understand it, it pisses me off.

Don't get me wrong, I still voted almost exclusively for Democrats. But I did it because I think the Republicans are a real danger to America, not because I had faith in the Democrats' program.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I understand people's criticism of Obama, for the most part. But I don't know how many of the points you outlined above are stated as if you just arrived to this country yesterday from some weird place in which you do not know anything about what is and isn't possible.

I wanted him to be way left of where he ended up being, but I remember that he didn't run on a way left platform. I wanted him to pass significant health care reform, but realized that that shit was not fucking possible. I wanted him to tell Netanyahoooo to sit down and shut the fuck up every once in awhile, etc., etc. etc. But I am not insane. And if he went too far left on anything, the voting public, which is made up of children, would have thrown a fit and he would have lost even the Democrats who wanted to get shit done.

I don't agree with everything the man has done, but to act like yesterday was about specific issues with people and not this sort of general malaise that will hang over this country due to a recovering economy (yeah, more jobs, but all shitty, low-paying jobs), a non-Ebola crisis (at least in the US), trouble with ISIS that hasn't affected anyone even indirectly (who doesn't serve), and various school and other mass shootings, etc., is just plain bullshit.

I'm with Maher. Democrats should start ignoring polls and selling the good shit they've done. The polls will move in your direction because people are stupid and are programmed to repeat what they've seen over and over again. Stop running away from your actual accomplisments.

TM

I hate to double-down on a post, but I just re-read what you said and what I said and realized that, other than his contempt for civil liberties, we are basically saying the same thing. The Democrats didn't sell their work, so people didn't have a clear idea of why nothing was working. The Republicans did a better job of filling that vacuum.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by taxwonk

people like Hank focusing on the fact that their ox got gored.

since you are dense enough to think this is accurate....

there is no point talking to you about anything.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I understand people's criticism of Obama, for the most part. But I don't know how many of the points you outlined above are stated as if you just arrived to this country yesterday from some weird place in which you do not know anything about what is and isn't possible.

I wanted him to be way left of where he ended up being, but I remember that he didn't run on a way left platform. I wanted him to pass significant health care reform, but realized that that shit was not fucking possible. I wanted him to tell Netanyahoooo to sit down and shut the fuck up every once in awhile, etc., etc. etc. But I am not insane. And if he went too far left on anything, the voting public, which is made up of children, would have thrown a fit and he would have lost even the Democrats who wanted to get shit done.

I don't agree with everything the man has done, but to act like yesterday was about specific issues with people and not this sort of general malaise that will hang over this country due to a recovering economy (yeah, more jobs, but all shitty, low-paying jobs), a non-Ebola crisis (at least in the US), trouble with ISIS that hasn't affected anyone even indirectly (who doesn't serve), and various school and other mass shootings, etc., is just plain bullshit.

I'm with Maher. Democrats should start ignoring polls and selling the good shit they've done. The polls will move in your direction because people are stupid and are programmed to repeat what they've seen over and over again. Stop running away from your actual accomplisments.

TM

A big, resounding, 2.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

since you are dense enough to think this is accurate....

there is no point talking to you about anything.

Hank, you seriously aren't saying that you haven't posted about this over and over, are you? I didn't say it was all you were about, but it has been a consistent theme. The balance of what you have had to say is that it was difficult to figure the program out. But whatever...

[Adder]

Originally Posted by taxwonk

Instead, he has been one of the more "Imperial" presidents in a generation.

As far as I know, he hasn't invaded* any countries, so that's going a little far.

* yeah, bombs and drones everywhere, I know, gut empires typically involve taking over territory.

On healthcare, he should have been taking it to the people. If he had made his plan more publicly available and understandable, he would have sold more people. He would have lost, ultimately, but people would know what was at stake and you wouldn't have people like Hank focusing on the fact that their ox got gored.

I know what you mean, but are you really angry that he got the things he got, which are helping people and saving lives today, instead losing nobly? But I did it because I think the Republicans are a real danger to America, not because I had faith in the Democrats' program.

The Democrats have a program? Huh.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Adder

As far as I know, he hasn't invaded* any countries, so that's going a little far.

* yeah, bombs and drones everywhere, I know, gut empires typically involve taking over territory.

I was referring more to his attitude that he is not accountable to the American people. But, yeah, bombs and drones. That's sort of intrusive of other sovereign states' territory.

The Democrats have a program? Huh.

My point exactly.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Yes. He shits on everyone Islamic or Arabic with a gleeful ignorance about both Islam and MENA and an eagerness to paint everyone as a caricature. I know it gets him ratings to be a bloviating ignorant shitbag.

Enh. I don't hear him shit on Arabs generally. He does go hard at Islam, but he goes hard at every religion. He tends to single Islam out because out of all the religions, that's the one used most by lunatics as a justification to murder non-believers (of their very specific set of skewed beliefs). It's true that he seems to pain the entire religion with the broad brush of extremism. But I think what he gets stuck on are these polls (I won't pretend to know anything about the numbers behind them) where a large number of all kinds of muslims seem to be in favor of things like "Death to those who joke about Mohammed" or "Non-believers should be killed."

His ego is truly out of control. But I love when he shits on the many Republicans who are spewing absolute garbage. And since he spends so much time on that, I'll continue to watch his show. It's very cathartic.

TM

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by taxwonk

Hank, you seriously aren't saying that you haven't posted about this over and over, are you? I didn't say it was all you were about, but it has been a consistent theme. The balance of what you have had to say is that it was difficult to figure the program out. But whatever...

I said it was great to cover people but fucked up that it was done in a way the seriously downgrades coverage for the middle class. That is not my ox.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by taxwonk

I was referring more to his attitude that he is not accountable to the American people.

I don't know what that means. When it's on Fox or from some right winger, they mean using executive orders to do things that Congress refuses to do.

What do you mean by it? What has he done that suggests he does not feel accountable to the American people?

[Not Bob]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Enh. I don't hear him shit on Arabs generally. He does go hard at Islam, but he goes hard at every religion. He tends to single Islam out because out of all the religions, that's the one used most by lunatics as a justification to murder non-believers (of their very specific set of skewed beliefs). It's true that he seems to pain the entire religion with the broad brush of extremism. But I think what he gets stuck on are these polls (I won't pretend to know anything about the numbers behind them) where a large number of all kinds of muslims seem to be in favor of things like "Death to those who joke about Mohammed" or "Non-believers should be killed."

His ego is truly out of control. But I love when he shits on the many Republicans who are spewing absolute garbage. And since he spends so much time on that, I'll continue to watch his show. It's very cathartic.

TM

Maher also (as Mrs. Not Bob mentioned to me last night) is one of the few people in his line of work who have intelligent people who disagree with him appear on his show. Like, for example, Rula Jebreal, who called him out on his bigotry in the most recent episode.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Enh. I don't hear him shit on Arabs generally. He does go hard at Islam, but he goes hard at every religion. He tends to single Islam out because out of all the religions, that's the one used most by lunatics as a justification to murder non-believers (of their very specific set of skewed beliefs). It's true that he seems to pain the entire religion with the broad brush of extremism. But I think what he gets stuck on are these polls (I won't pretend to know anything about the numbers behind them) where a large number of all kinds of muslims seem to be in favor of things like "Death to those who joke about Mohammed" or "Non-believers should be killed."

His ego is truly out of control. But I love when he shits on the many Republicans who are spewing absolute garbage. And since he spends so much time on that, I'll continue to watch his show. It's very cathartic.

TM

A quick google of Maher and Arab gets us these gems:

"I'm for racial profiling."

"Arabs only understand force."

"Talk to women who’ve ever dated an Arab man. The results are not good. They have a sense of entitlement."

I could go deeper on the google page, but why bother? He uses "Islamic" and "Arab" interchangeably, in both cases ignorantly, too, in both cases with great bigotry. If you want to laugh with the racist, well, enjoy. I'm sure he, like racists everywhere, is just misunderstood.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Not Bob

Maher also (as Mrs. Not Bob mentioned to me last night) is one of the few people in his line of work who have intelligent people who disagree with him appear on his show. Like, for example, Rula Jebreal, who called him out on his bigotry in the most recent episode.

George Wallace rides again!

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by taxwonk

Let me start by saying that he lost me over Gitmo and the NSA's "let's spy on everybody, just in case" program. After his failure to deliver on those two points, he would have had to get just about everything else he talked about accomplished for me to be at all pro-Obama. Instead, he has been one of the more "Imperial" presidents in a generation.

Count me as one of the people who can't figure this issue out. To be honest, it may be because I love Obama and trust him to do the right thing (realizing of course that that is a naive stance to take and that it doesn't necessarily work when the next person takes office). I also think that (and I realize this argument has been used since the dawn of time) we live in a different world--one in which the line between the government's expertise when it comes to tech is really really close to some very evil people's expertise. And I wonder how much you or I would change our opinions and approaches if we had top-level access to just what is going on and how we can best battle it.

I'm also of the belief that from the day someone first used technology to write something down, governments have had ways to read it that you and I don't know much about. I think it has always been this way and every once in awhile, the curtain gets pulled back and we're all pissed off about it. But I don't think anyone really thinks the government hasn't been listening all along, no matter who the fucking President is. And that's not to say you shouldn't be pissed about it. I just think it's the way it is.

Originally Posted by taxwonk

On healthcare, he should have been taking it to the people. If he had made his plan more publicly available and understandable, he would have sold more people. He would have lost, ultimately, but people would know what was at stake and you wouldn't have people like Hank focusing on the fact that their ox got gored.

What does this mean? You'd rather he lost on principle than get what he got (which I will always remember as a huge win)?

Originally Posted by taxwonk

If Obama had been more forthcoming, more public, then more people would be more pissed off at the Republican obstruction that has been going on for the last 6 years and yesterday would have gone differently. Instead, he held himself above the fray, and people felt like they were being condescended to (because, well, they were).

I agree with you when it comes to Obama and the Democrats doing a poor job on selling healthcare reform. Truly awful, especially given the fact that every single person seemed to be in favor of what was in the bill when asked about the items individually. The Republicans did a great job of labeling it something else entirely, but given the fact that the citizens of this country are fucking maroons, it's much easier to scare when it comes to change than it is to sell.

On your second point, I simply cannot agree. Obama is a black man who is President. He has absolutely no choice but to stay above the fray. The minute he shows any emotion that isn't calm, he's an angry black man--the very personification of every white person's personal fucking nightmare. So he grins and grits his teeth and it comes off as aloof or condescending. But fuck that. I give the man all the credit in the world for not flipping over the desk in the Oval Office and saying, "Fuck this shit. You assholes deserve whatever you get."

Originally Posted by taxwonk

He ran as a man for the people. He's governed as one who finds the people to be an annoyance at best. I'm a smart guy. When my President starts acting like he needn't explain his program because I wouldn't understand it, it pisses me off.

Again, can't disagree more.

Originally Posted by taxwonk

Don't get me wrong, I still voted almost exclusively for Democrats. But I did it because I think the Republicans are a real danger to America, not because I had faith in the Democrats' program.

I'm with you there. Isn't it great how everyone knows every politician is owned by corporations and yet we can't change the fucking law in any way that makes an ounce of sense because THE CONSTITUTION! is sacred, even when our justices read it in the dumbest possible way?

We can't even pass a simple law limiting (not eliminating, limiting) assault weapons in this country. Instead, we watch children die so that some dumbass hick in Alabama can collect 40 semi-automatic rifles. This country is stupid.

Originally Posted by taxwonk

I hate to double-down on a post, but I just re-read what you said and what I said and realized that, other than his contempt for civil liberties, we are basically saying the same thing. The Democrats didn't sell their work, so people didn't have a clear idea of why nothing was working. The Republicans did a better job of filling that vacuum.

Filling the vacuum? They created a market for fear of any kind of change and then hammered away at that while doing absolutely nothing and standing in the way of any progress at all. Then they pointed at Obama and said, "That condescending asshole won't work with us, thinks you're stupid, and hasn't accomplished anything!" It's a fucking joke. And it's not funny.

If Hillary wins, it's more of the same. Hell, if any Democrat wins, I think what we've been experiencing is the new Republican blueprint, because they'll just gerrymander themselves into office and threaten to blow shit up until they get their way. And it all comes back to the fact that our electorate is so fucking stupid that they can't remember why they're mad and who they're mad at from one day to the fucking next.

TM

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Not Bob

Maher also (as Mrs. Not Bob mentioned to me last night) is one of the few people in his line of work who have intelligent people who disagree with him appear on his show. Like, for example, Rula Jebreal, who called him out on his bigotry in the most recent episode.

Agree. And it's appreciated. Although, to be fair, when someone takes the opposite side of an issue he is particularly fired up about, he quite often sticks his fingers in his ears, forces the last word, and moves on to another topic.

But I think the good outweighs the bad.

TM