A Friendly Correction for those Man-Haters who Delve to be Single

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch

There’s probably a lot we disagree on — it’s hard to know with you, in a good way — but I am sick to fucking death of rich people, "rich" being here a word for people who earn $20K+ more than me.

put rancid shit in your garbage cans? fight the POWER!

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

Hell, wasn't the Dapper Don a celebrity? It took Vinnie the Chin, walking around in a bathrobe muttering to himself, to take some bloom off the mafia rose.

Do you think we need to make Adder's lot more public, so law school admissions drop off?

[Not Bob]

Originally Posted by notcasesensitive

Isn't this exactly what people who objected to Wolf of Wall Street were talking about? That by making the movie it was giving the guy a pass for and glorifying his behavior (and making him more money in the process)?

[Note: I have not seen Wolf of Wall Street.]

Not by merely making the movie, but yes.

[Not Bob]

Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch

So the FBI just arrested my state senator (whom I fucking despise, have never voted for, and wouldn't vote for for dog catcher) for public corruption. Am I a bad person for being happy about this, even though I hate the FBI slightly more? Does it affect your view of my hypocrisy if you knew the "Special" Agent (they’re all "Special" Agents, BTW) conducted the press conference outside one of the homes where the warrant was executed (for a public corruption charge) while wearing an OD bulletproof vest with "FBI" across the chest?

Hmm. Sounds like someone's got a bad case of Jurisdiction Friction (Apropos of Nothing, I love tvtropes.org).

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Not Bob

Not by merely making the movie, but yes.

1- my family that saw it found the man disgusting, not a role model,

2 Mr. skin says it has the best breast shots of the year.

I have not seen it but you can argue it dumb or smart, it seems there are redeeming qualities.

[tmdiva]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Depends on what's more important to you, paying the tuition or having the coffee. I say go with the coffee.

Public school.

tm

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

There's nothing wrong with being happy here. It's not like you're glad Gwyneth Paltrow uncoupled because you want a shot at her.

The "dark" Coldplay album surely follows that split.

Oh, and it will be bleak. Black hole bleak, I tell you. Keyboards set to the most stark tones, drum machines on barely there beats... No "Yellow" here. At most - if we're lucky, "Oran--" No, fuck that, "Burnt Magenta." Maybe, at its most optimistic.

Blood on the Tracks and In Utero won't have nothin' on this epic of love and loss.

[ferrets_bueller]

Good morning, cybercounsellors.

My mini-rant on rap took some interesting twists and turns in the subsequent discussion.

One thread argued that rappers, like actors, are simply playing a role. The weight of the evidence is against this argument.

No matter how moronic actors can be in private life, (Mr. Gibson and Mr. Crowe, call your office) virtually none of them, in their private lives, adopt the persona of the gangster or criminal they may have portrayed. (I will slap the first person who responds with "Yes, but what about Steven Segal!" Every rule has its exception.)

On the other hand, a disproportionate number of rappers adopt, embrace, and stay in character in their out-of- the-recording-studio and offstage lives. You don't really need me to list examples here, do you? I believe this is a conscious choice, whether motivated by cynical economics in order to play to a fan base, or whether motivated by a desire to actually embrace the thug life.

Actors= rappers? No. As different as apples and AK -47s.

The second argument in the thread is that many films glorify (i) violence (ii) criminality (iii) pick your antisocial activity of choice, and that in this regard those films are similar to rap music. I believe this to be true.

The best example discussed is The Wolf of Wall Street. I've given lectures about the brokerage and the principals in the film. Back in the day, I litigated against Belfort and Porush. No amount of bathing in champagne could wash the stink off these rodents. Yet they are depicted as swashbucklers.

In reality, the people at Stratton Oakmont are best described by the long since deceased 1960s hippie poet, Richard Brautigan in his poem "Negative Clank." The poem, in its entirety states:

He'd sell a rat's asshole
to a blind man
for a wedding ring.

So yes, I'll stipulate that movies can glorify the same execrable conduct that turns me off rap. But off screen and off stage, East Coast Actors don't often mow down West Coast Actors. At least not nearly as often disputatious rappers tend to do. And I think that is a major distinction.

Finally, I would of course admit that there are rap pieces that are excellent as poetry, and music. This is true even when the subject describes the wretched actions I object to. But taken as a whole, in my opinion, and yours may certainly vary, the genre detracts more than it adds.

Now back to making the world safe for our clients, all of whom are, like the citizens of Lake Woebegon, sterling moral examples of all that is good in this most excellent of nations.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

1- my family that saw it found the man disgusting, not a role model,

2 Mr. skin says it has the best breast shots of the year.

I have not seen it but you can argue it dumb or smart, it seems there are redeeming qualities.

1. Apparently (shockingly), it is received much differently among the Douche demographic, which makes up 76% of its viewing audience.

2. Mr. Skin is right. A Google image search for Margot Robbie nude will save you three hours of your life.

3. There are redeeming qualities, but just as Taxi Driver caused numerous copycat murders, an increase in child prostitution among closeted teenage lesbians, and the mohawk haircut trend, WWS is going to cause corruption in the finance industry. One more pillar of society ruined by reckless art.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by tmdiva

Public school.

tm

Assume you have a $45,000 budget.

[ferrets_bueller]

Every once in a while, the news and a theory smash against each other like atoms in a particle accelerator. Today's New York Times contains the following headline:

Legal Debate on Using Boastful Rap Lyrics as a Smoking Gun

The text is here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/27/ar...al-debate.html?


Yours in evidentiary connectivity,

Ferrets

[sebastian_dangerfield]

One thread argued that rappers, like actors, are simply playing a role. The weight of the evidence is against this argument.

The argument isn't constructed of mere numbers. That dozens of mildly famous pikers are actually criminals does not undo the fact that the big players like Dr. Dre, Jay-Z, Eminem, 50 Cent, etc. are playing parts. (Eminem might actually be clinically "unspooled," but he's not a criminal.)

No matter how moronic actors can be in private life, (Mr. Gibson and Mr. Crowe, call your office) virtually none of them, in their private lives, adopt the persona of the gangster or criminal they may have portrayed. (I will slap the first person who responds with "Yes, but what about Steven Segal!" Every rule has its exception.)

The same can be said for the overwhelming majority of rappers.

On the other hand, a disproportionate number of rappers adopt, embrace, and stay in character in their out-of- the-recording-studio and offstage lives.

The dumb ones, with bad handlers.

You don't really need me to list examples here, do you? I believe this is a conscious choice, whether motivated by cynical economics in order to play to a fan base, or whether motivated by a desire to actually embrace the thug life.

It's motivated by them being dumb motherfuckers who get taken by agents and piss the cash they do receive away on bling. It's no different than rock bands who make nothing and wind up drugged out burnouts in middle age, or overdose victims. The only difference is, with rappers, its kids who grew up in violent neighborhoods. Theirs is just another form of the self-destructive behavior undertaken by kids who start rock bands and flame out because they're too dumb to manage their shit. (Suge Knight is the exception here. Why that guy had to stay gangsta, despite his obvious shrewdness, baffles me.)

You're drawing an arbitrary line based on type of art. The line here is dumb versus smart. Jay-Z is smart. [Insert idiot who gets taken by his management company, gets no royalties and pisses his minimal cash away on Bentleys here] is not.

Actors= rappers? No. As different as apples and AK -47s.

True. Actors who make it get picked up by CAA and make hundreds of times what successful rappers do early in their careers.

The second argument in the thread is that many films glorify (i) violence (ii) criminality (iii) pick your antisocial activity of choice, and that in this regard those films are similar to rap music. I believe this to be true.

True since Milton penned Paradise Lost. Satan's always the more interesting character. There's always an allure to violating rules, to profiting from subversion, etc.

The best example discussed is The Wolf of Wall Street. I've given lectures about the brokerage and the principals in the film. Back in the day, I litigated against Belfort and Porush. No amount of bathing in champagne could wash the stink off these rodents. Yet they are depicted as swashbucklers.

Commercial concerns dictate narratives must engage the audience. Ever try to put out something with an unlikeable protagonist? It's a hard sell. Breaking Bad was about as far as you can push it, and White only got away with being a hero because he had cancer and was the little guy fighting the system. Belfort is a more complicated, but more real character. He's the guy who had advantages, faced no adversity, and decided to steal anyway, just to get rich. He's the nihilism we all like to pretend does not exist, at least to some extent, in every human. That makes him uncomfortable.

In reality, the people at Stratton Oakmont are best described by the long since deceased 1960s hippie poet, Richard Brautigan in his poem "Negative Clank." The poem, in its entirety states:

He'd sell a rat's asshole
to a blind man
for a wedding ring.

This differs from 33% of the people you engage in commercial endeavors how exactly?

So yes, I'll stipulate that movies can glorify the same execrable conduct that turns me off rap. But off screen and off stage, East Coast Actors don't often mow down West Coast Actors. At least not nearly as often disputatious rappers tend to do. And I think that is a major distinction.

It is. But again -- look to background. Crowe didn't grow up in a dangerous neighborhood. Nor did Gibson. These are middle class kids who were smart enough to manage their money well well when they got it (Gibson exceptionally so), and were never immersed in violent culture.

Finally, I would of course admit that there are rap pieces that are excellent as poetry, and music. This is true even when the subject describes the wretched actions I object to. But taken as a whole, in my opinion, and yours may certainly vary, the genre detracts more than it adds.

I don't have the bandwidth to slice this broadside apart. I'll just say this: Not even you really believe a statement so utterly unsupportable on its face. There's provocation with merit, provocation based on dubious arguments, and then there's just saying some really silly shit. You're so far into 3 on this last comment, you can't even see 1 or 2 from where you're standing.

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by ferrets_bueller

Finally, I would of course admit that there are rap pieces that are excellent as poetry, and music. This is true even when the subject describes the wretched actions I object to. But taken as a whole, in my opinion, and yours may certainly vary, the genre detracts more than it adds.

I'm critical of a lot of the mindless bullshit that the commercializtion of rap has produced these days for a lot of reasons -- misogyny, glorification of violence, and mostly because a lot of the music sucks. I have criticised it on this board, most recently Chief Keef. But at least I have a sliver of a clue of what I'm talking about. Your half-assed non-admission is complete fucking asininity, as is pretty mcuh everything else you have said on the subject. I'm pretty damn certain that the reason that you don't like rap is that you don't know rap. You don't know fucking shit about rap. You don't know about its history, its roots, its many genres and sub-genres. To even discuss rap today as if it is a monolithic homogenous genre is in itself moronic. It makes about as much sense as making generalizations about "rock." It's meaningless. You're just some old dude who doesn't understand it so you dismiss it based largely on hysterical sound bites and pre-conceieved notions. You're like one of those old coots who, back in the day, dismissed "rock and roll" as worthless devil music undermining the souls of our youth. Or, before that, jazz. Well guess what -- even the old coots have moved on. Making broad ignorant criticisms about rap is so 1998. You should focus your ignorance on EDM. (Go look it up -- this is the real threat to our nation's youth, mark my words.)

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by ferrets_bueller

On the other hand, a disproportionate number of rappers adopt, embrace, and stay in character in their out-of- the-recording-studio and offstage lives.

"adopt?" isn't it possible that many lived through some violence? the treating women poorly stuff might come with some fame, so maybe that is "adopted."

The thing I think forced is the "money to burn" stance. sometimes I'll hear that and ask my son if the guy is really famous, and he'll tell me it's the guy's first song. If so he isn't rich yet, right?

[ferrets_bueller]

PLF: I'm pretty damn certain that the reason that you don't like rap is that you don't know rap. You don't know fucking shit about rap.

Ferrets: Stipulated. My original post specifically solicited recommendations of artists that would alter my views. Look: I've asked you. Who are the people you believe are worth your time, and mine? I've never pretended to know about rap, and said so up front. But it is difficult for you or anyone else to decouple rap from some of its demonstrable effects.

PLF: "Old Coot...etc"

Ferrets: Stipulated. But where today's New York Times notes that criminal investigators in multiple jurisdictions find rap lyrics sufficiently tied to actual criminal activity by the rapper so as to use the lyrics as an investigative tool, my point shouldn't be considered wildly off the charts. Sub-genres notwithstanding.

Some percentage of rappers...we could argue about the percentage...actually encourage crime. If you think most do not, fine. But there is indisputable evidence that there is a violent criminal element here. Not so much with jazz, and rock. (Apart from a significant, but usually only self-destructive, drug culture in both.) So, rather than making ad hominem attacks about the fact that I am chronologically advanced, who are the rappers I should pay attention to that prove my impressions incorrect? Inquiring elderly minds want to know.