Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

Do you feel this way about megachurches?

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

It's not a pretext at all, but whatever.

People do not regularly get together in large groups without incident. Have you ever been to a Raider game? I've never been to one without incident.

I have no problem whatsoever with requiring the protestors to get a permit and to abide by the permit. If the permits are not issued or are issued on unreasonable terms, that would be a problem for me.

I'm not a conservative, but I am an ardent supporter of free speech. Say whatever the fuck you want, wherever you want, to whomever you want. Assembly is different to me (and to 250 years of jurists in this country).

I have no issue with the protestors, other than I think they are generally stupid. "We want jobs, so lets fuck with commerce. That'll show em."

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

Yes, but in a different way. There is nothing more abhorrent to me than religion, other than religion in large doses.

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

You get what I'm mocking, right? So far you've reported that one (or more?) person in LA shat on a wall, and concluded a public safety issue from that. And one (or more?) business person in SF, from which you seems to have concluded that small businesses in three cities are being killed.

Tell me that people in LA were getting sick if you want to make the case for public health issue. Tell me that businesses in LA are suffering if you want to use that as a reason for police action there.

People shit outside in cities all th time, inidividual small business bitch about anything and everything, and what happens in one city can't necessarily be generalized to others.

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

It's clear that you either have a bleaker view of humanity than I, or a bleaker view of this set of humanity.

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

For the vast majority of the participants, it is.

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

Again, what are the cops trying to achieve? Are they trying to arrest the troublemakers or protect property?

Because I think they can do the latter without arresting everyone else. But that might require not accomplishing the former.

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

Do you like anybody?

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

No. You have this need to condense everything down to facts in a hypo. I'm giving you examples, I'm not listing the universe of facts for you to analyze and write an answer.

There have been several rapes at these events across the country. There has been other violence. There were reports of child abuse. Look it up. Although I'm sure a majority of the protestors are peacefully assembling, there are others that are not.

And I don't want to wait for a public health problem to happen in order to for there to be action. Seriously, that is retarded.

You act as though there is a mass censorship campaign going on. The protestors in LA have been there for 2 months. They were asked to leave so the space could be cleaned (much like in Zucotti park). If they want to assemble again, get a permit and knock yourself out.

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

humanity in general.

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

Which Raider games have been called off due to the possibility or occurrence of incidents?

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

I like you - wait, are you a protestor or into religion?

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

Which Raider games have gone on for 2 months or without authorization?

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

I guess you don't get what I was mocking.

You believe whatever those who want to end these protests when the say bad stuff is going on, even though those people (be they the government or the right wing spin machine) offer little or no evidence of those things, and the evidence they offer (eg The ny shitter Ty mentioned) often doesn't withstand scrutiny.

Why?

And again, if Bloomberg and the la mayor are happy with them coming back, why couldn't they negotiation a cleaning break?

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

It really doesn't give you pause to suggest that free speech and free assembly require authorization?

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

If there were actual disease there, then (a) one would look for a way to prevent/treat the disease while letting the protests go on, and (b) the sort of person who believes that responsible adults should be able to make informed decisions might say that anyone who wants to accept the risk of disease (or frostbite, in the Twin Cities, etc.) to protest, well that's their choice.

You're using the notional threat of disease as a justification to stop protests you don't like. That's pretext. Just saying it's not a pretext doesn't change it.

And yet the Raiders play several games in Oakland every year. The incident does not become a pretext to stop the football, because we all recognize that the football has value to many people, like you.

And under the Constitution, political speech has a legal protection that football does not!

Why should you have to get a permit at all to engage political speech. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights -- not Rights that are permitted by local government.

First of all, you are totally a conservative. (And I would bet money that you've identified here before as a conservative but not a Republican, but I don't know how to look for it.)

Second, you are not an ardent supporter of free speech if you think it's OK for political protestors to be arrested because some official says there's a danger of disease.

Third, if you want to support free speech, you have to recognize that free speech and assembly are not two separate things -- for there to be meaningful free speech, there needs to be some right to assembly, which is why the First Amendment includes both together.

I don't want to stake out the position that the Occupy folks have an unlimited right to squat on any public space to make their point, because I don't believe it. What I really object to is the heavy-handed suppression of them by local governments who find political speech inconvenient.

I don't think most of them are about "fucking with commerce," and I think that's a very odd way to describe what they're doing.

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

It's not a coincidence at all. The anarchists are exploiting the peaceful protesters and hijacking their event. They see an opportunity. They take advantage of the fact that people like club will see them as one big group, which serves as a justification for the suppression of legitimate, peaceful protest.

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

Yes, because I have no ability to think for myself and just blindly follow the right wing puppet masters wherever they want to lead me.

You believe that anyone on the left that gathers in protest is doing so for a worthy, noble cause. "We shall o-ver-cuuuuuum, We shall cum-bi-ahhhhhh"

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

How many times do I have to distinguish between these two?

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

Uh, no. If anything, I've identified as a libertarian, as that is the closest to my beliefs, although I've moved more to the middle over the last few years, especially on market issues.

No, I don't. I see them as two very distinct rights. What is funny is that you acknowledge that the right to assemble is not without limits. What is funnier is that think that governments are acting heavy handed after 2 months.

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

The position you are taking today is incompatible with any form of libertarianism.

If there's no camping allowed in the park, they shouldn't let people camp in the park. When they let it go for a while, they clearly are recognizing that the people there are engaged in a legitimate exercise of political protest. When they then suppress it on bogus pretexts, it's pretty clearly a subjective decision that they don't want to permit the political speech, rather than a bona fide decision that camping is not allowed in the park.

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

are you against laws relating to ensuring hygiene, or to eliminate situations that can result in spreadable disease?

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

Well, there's TM's top 20, or most of them.

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

Why does that matter? If the incidents happen at every game, despite the game lasting just a few hours, then shouldn't we put a stop to those games? It's not like the gatherings happen without notice.

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

If you think children shouldn't be allowed to play with flamethrowers, are you also in favor of banning kitchen matches?

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

I'm definitel against a law "to eliminate situations that can result in spreadable disease," particularly if such laws are selectively designed to eliminate only those situations that also contain a message of political protest.

What other laws do we have that eliminate situations that can result in spreadable disease? Is sex illegal? Sex clubs? Football games in cold and flu season?

True, we have food inspection laws. Are those typically enforced with riot batons and pepper spray?

Gotta say -- I was very much on the fence about all of this stuff, at the beginning of today, as my posts may have suggested. But you and club lost this one.

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

again, "no camping" has been pretty basic law since Reagan's second admin. That cities let it go for a few months doesn't mean it isn't still the law.

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

I would love for you to be trial counsel on the other side for a trial, just once. do you not see how simple your argument is?

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

in your law firm would you try to blend in with the guy who abused client's funds or move away? have you heard what happened to joepa?

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

as to small business, I think we should ask Ty. He knew all about what motivates and impacts small businesses in several debates here in the past.

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

I'm a 1%er. I won years ago, and this mess or that mess have no impact on me.

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

While I'm pleased to hear it, I don't know how much of a difference these issues are going to matter.

Ultimately, when you do civil disobedience, you get arrested - it is kind of the point. Gandhi stepped beyond and the Civil Rights movement stepped beyond. I don't think OWS has thought out the next step they must take, and how to move this one to the ballot box. I like that there is distance between them and the dems - considerable distance - something the Rs should have put between them and the tea party. But they need an exit strategy.

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

first they need an entrance strategy.

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

Exactly. They will have a grand total of ZERO effect.

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

it's a mass of 100 different voices, with 40 or so wanting to overthrow our government and put a communist state in, but at least they all voice their opinion and the several views are known across occupy, which is why they don't try to make any demand or positions.

occupy would be more successful if it had a dictator of thought like Ty, but politics board would benefit from a free sharing of facts and viewpoint like seems to occur at occupy.

"occupy needs more toadies!!!" I've registered the trademark.

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1...n_1119473.html

the gov is passing a law that will let us lock up most of these occupiers, it's all good.

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

This from a guy that censored a politics board.

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

When I read about this this morning, I was viscerally upset and disgusted. And, it gets worse. Despite the administration threatening to veto the bill (which it should), according to Prof. Kopel on Volokh:

I would spit upon any House or Senate member I met who voted for this bill. By military fiat, any American can be detained forever and tortured at Gitmo because they are an alleged "terrorist" (however that is fucking defined). Korematsu anyone? Irony that in our "efforts" to protect ourselves from "terrorism," we give up the fundamental tenets of the country. I would say that Habeas should protect, but Congress and the Supreme court have virtually eviserated the Writ. Jeremy Bentham would be proud.

I am so happy to be a German. How further ironic is that?

Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 

There was a threat of disease. It was all good.

Or was it Iceland?
 

Bankster explains how the housing bubble and financial crisis were all Barney Frank's fault.