LawTalkers
Page 46 of 125 « First 364445 46 47485696 Last »
Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page

LawTalkers (http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/index.php)
-   Politics (http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=16)
-   -   My God, you are an idiot. (http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=861)

Tyrone Slothrop 07-25-2011 02:07 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtclub (Post 456219)
Or alternatively, you put the issue squarely in front of the voters. Assuming the climate doesn't change in the next 12 months, Obama does not want to have to defend another debt ceiling increase while he is trying to get elected.*

*the same Obama that voted against the debt ceiling increase as a senator.
Republicans didn't want multiple votes either:

Quote:
When it comes the Republicans’ debt-ceiling crisis, President Obama has been eager, arguably too eager, to compromise with GOP leaders. The White House has, however, been entirely consistent on one key request: whatever the final deal looks like, it has to raise the debt ceiling through the end of next year. Everything else is on the table.

The latest plan from House Republicans, however, ignores this one demand. House Speaker John Boehner wants one debt-ceiling vote this week, and then wants the country to go through all of this again early next year. President Obama, not surprisingly, has said this just won’t do.

House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-Va.) is outraged.
Quote:
House Majority Leader Eric Cantor indicated in his remarks during the conference call that Republicans don’t want to give President Barack Obama a debt-ceiling deal that lasts past the 2012 elections. Mr. Cantor called the president’s insistence on a deal that carries through the election purely political and indefensible.
What’s interesting about this is that Cantor has long believed the exact opposite. Judd Legum noted that as recently as last month, the oft-confused Majority Leader insisted there should be just one vote on the debt ceiling in this Congress. He dismissed those who argued otherwise as misguided.

To review, when Cantor wants one vote, it’s sensible. When Obama wants the exact the same thing, it’s “political and indefensible.”

Indeed, as it turns out, it’s not just Cantor. The lynchpin of Boehner’s new plan — one vote now, one vote early next year — is an idea several GOP leaders in both chambers have already said they oppose, at least until Boehner switched gears. Did all of these Republicans take an “indefensible” position, or does this only apply to Democrats?

This is pretty straightforward. Forcing two votes is bad for the economy, it’s bad for Congress as an institution, it’s bad for lawmakers, and it’s even bad for public sanity. Worse, it’s totally unnecessary.

So, here’s the question for Republicans: why was forcing the country to go through this twice an awful idea in June, but a great idea that Obama has to accept in July?
links in the original

sgtclub 07-25-2011 02:07 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adder (Post 456228)
Honest question: what are you talking about?
From the articles I read over the weekend, Obama kept re-trading agreed upon deal points, which caused Boehner to walk from the process. Then he Reid, McConnel and Pelosi continued on at the capital, trying to hash out a deal.

sgtclub 07-25-2011 02:09 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adder (Post 456231)
Or the Rs refusing everything else because they don't want to hand Obama something he can tout as a victory and instead hope they can reverse public perception if they get a do over.
See my prior post. It is being reported that Reid took the deal to Obama and Obama vetoed.

Tyrone Slothrop 07-25-2011 02:09 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adder (Post 456228)
Honest question: what are you talking about?
He's repeating what Boehner said Friday about Obama moving the goalposts.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 07-25-2011 02:14 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtclub (Post 456233)
From the articles I read over the weekend, Obama kept re-trading agreed upon deal points, which caused Boehner to walk from the process. Then he Reid, McConnel and Pelosi continued on at the capital, trying to hash out a deal.
Do you even try to think just a little bit about these things before you type them?

We'll never get the full story of what happened behind closed doors, but at this point Obama has publicly given an enormous number of points, and Boehner has publicly given.... absolutely squat. I don't see what the little child is so petulant about.

Adder 07-25-2011 02:16 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtclub (Post 456234)
See my prior post. It is being reported that Reid took the deal to Obama and Obama vetoed.
I'm not sure what you think that shows. Yes, Obama doesn't want to go through this bullshit dance again in a few months. To my recollection, no R did until last week, when they apparently started to believe that Obama wasn't going to cave any more than he already has. Or maybe when it sunk in that they were losing the PR game mightily.

Following Ty's links, here's Cantor on June 21: "“I don’t see how multiple votes on a debt ceiling increase can help get us to where we want to go," and "Putting off tough decisions is not what people want in this town" and "if we can’t make the tough decisions now, why … would [we] be making those tough decisions later."

Tyrone Slothrop 07-25-2011 02:17 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtclub (Post 456234)
See my prior post. It is being reported that Reid took the deal to Obama and Obama vetoed.
You should see what Reid's office says about this. (N.B. -- that's the Twitter page of Reid's communications director. Interesting wallpaper, given that.)

Adder 07-25-2011 02:17 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 456235)
He's repeating what Boehner said Friday about Obama moving the goalposts.
I have a hard time getting my head around the idea that anyone could hear that from Mr. Mobile Goalpost and not laugh.

Tyrone Slothrop 07-25-2011 02:18 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 456238)
Do you even try to think just a little bit about these things before you type them?

We'll never get the full story of what happened behind closed doors, but at this point Obama has publicly given an enormous number of points, and Boehner has publicly given.... absolutely squat. I don't see what the little child is so petulant about.
He's not a child and he's not petulant. He has very little ability to deliver votes, and the more he says specifically, the worse it gets for him. So he has to say that it's all on Obama.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 07-25-2011 02:20 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 456241)
You should see what Reid's office says about this. (N.B. -- that's the Twitter page of Reid's communications director. Interesting wallpaper, given that.)
Club only reads stuff on NRO and the Heritage foundation, and watches Fox. That page has not been endoresed by any of them.

Really, isn't it obvious by now by Boehner has no credibility in negotiations? When I deal with an ass like that, I believe the only way to close is to tell them all offers from here on go backwards. The more he screams, the more comes off the table.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 07-25-2011 02:22 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 456243)
He's not a child and he's not petulant. He has very little ability to deliver votes, and the more he says specifically, the worse it gets for him. So he has to say that it's all on Obama.
Hmmmm. I believe there are more adult ways for him to handle that screaming about it being someone else's fault.

Hank Chinaski 07-25-2011 02:22 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 456243)
He's not a child and he's not petulant. He has very little ability to deliver votes, and the more he says specifically, the worse it gets for him. So he has to say that it's all on Obama.
funny. I'm on a conference call in an hour to sort out a situation where a CEO and I settled a case under certain terms in a conference with a Judge. It was a good deal for my guy.

Then a rouge Board of Director refused to sign off on the actual language pointing to some nonsense argument.

It does seem Boehner is in the same boat, and really would have trouble committing to much.

Tyrone Slothrop 07-25-2011 02:25 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 456246)
funny. I'm on a conference call in an hour to sort out a situation where a CEO and I settled a case under certain terms in a conference with a Judge. It was a good deal for my guy.

Then a rouge Board of Director refused to sign off on the actual language pointing to some nonsense argument.

It does seem Boehner is in the same boat, and really would have trouble committing to much.
Seems to me that everything he says right now is tailored to make House Republicans think he's doing a good job, so that when he finally needs to sell them on a deal, he has a better chance. Once there's a deal, he'll be the guy that got the deal done -- for better or worse -- but if he reaches a deal with the White House and then can't sell it to the House Republicans, isn't he done?

sgtclub 07-25-2011 02:32 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adder (Post 456240)
I'm not sure what you think that shows. Yes, Obama doesn't want to go through this bullshit dance again in a few months. To my recollection, no R did until last week, when they apparently started to believe that Obama wasn't going to cave any more than he already has. Or maybe when it sunk in that they were losing the PR game mightily.

Following Ty's links, here's Cantor on June 21: "“I don’t see how multiple votes on a debt ceiling increase can help get us to where we want to go," and "Putting off tough decisions is not what people want in this town" and "if we can’t make the tough decisions now, why … would [we] be making those tough decisions later."
June 21st was eons ago in this negotiation. At the time, they wanted a grand plan. There is now not sufficient time for that, so the 2-step process, which both parties seem to tacitly support, is the road to break the impasse. Please keep up.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 07-25-2011 02:34 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 456247)
Seems to me that everything he says right now is tailored to make House Republicans think he's doing a good job, so that when he finally needs to sell them on a deal, he has a better chance. Once there's a deal, he'll be the guy that got the deal done -- for better or worse -- but if he reaches a deal with the White House and then can't sell it to the House Republicans, isn't he done?
It is true that if he gets a reasonable deal through all will be (begrudgingly perhaps) forgotten quickly.

And, of course, if the car hits the wall, do we really care about which dead guy is to blame?

sgtclub 07-25-2011 02:36 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 456241)
You should see what Reid's office says about this. (N.B. -- that's the Twitter page of Reid's communications director. Interesting wallpaper, given that.)
Quote:
Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., has been working on a fallback bill that officials said would cut $2.7 trillion in federal spending and raise the debt limit by $2.4 trillion in one step - enough borrowing authority to meet Obama's bottom-line demand.

In the process, though, another of the president's long-held conditions appeared to be in danger of rejection.

Neither Boehner's measure nor the one Reid was drafting included additional revenue, according to officials in both parties.

In remarks during the day, the president renewed his call for a balanced approach to cutting deficits that includes both spending cuts and higher revenue.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...07-25-12-14-43

sgtclub 07-25-2011 02:37 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 456245)
Hmmmm. I believe there are more adult ways for him to handle that screaming about it being someone else's fault.
You obviously didn't see Obama's press conference on Friday.

sgtclub 07-25-2011 02:40 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 456244)
Club only reads stuff on NRO and the Heritage foundation, and watches Fox. That page has not been endoresed by any of them.
This is rich. I'm really the only one on this board that has taken an objective view of the situation.

And for the record, I don't read NRO, the Weekly Standard or Heritage. I watch Fox only occasionally these days. I do read the WSJ religiously, but haven't read the editorial page in years. I watch some CNN. What do you read/watch? Seriously? Because it is concerning that seemingly smart people have such a one-sided view of the situation.

Tyrone Slothrop 07-25-2011 02:43 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 456249)
It is true that if he gets a reasonable deal through all will be (begrudgingly perhaps) forgotten quickly.

And, of course, if the car hits the wall, do we really care about which dead guy is to blame?
He does, because he would like to continue being the Speaker.

Tyrone Slothrop 07-25-2011 02:44 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtclub (Post 456250)
That does not say that Reid took the deal to Obama and Obama vetoed. It says that Reid is working on a deal without new revenues.

Adder 07-25-2011 02:45 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtclub (Post 456248)
There is now not sufficient time for that
That this is the line they are now taking is infuriating. There is/was plenty of time. It's been going on for months. Saying no to everything and then saying, "sorry, out of time." Why do you not see that as indefensible and politically motivated?

By the way, it's exactly the same bullshit they spewed about the health care reform, which was "rushed through" after months of them saying no to everything, and literally months of them begging a few possible swing votes.

Adder 07-25-2011 02:48 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtclub (Post 456250)
Right. One step. Also what I referred to this morning.

Adder 07-25-2011 02:51 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtclub (Post 456252)
I'm really the only one on this board that has taken an objective view of the situation.
Repeating what Cantor said, without even attribution, is taking the objective view?

sgtclub 07-25-2011 02:52 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 456254)
That does not say that Reid took the deal to Obama and Obama vetoed. It says that Reid is working on a deal without new revenues.
It is in another article being reported today.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 07-25-2011 03:00 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtclub (Post 456252)
This is rich. I'm really the only one on this board that has taken an objective view of the situation.

And for the record, I don't read NRO, the Weekly Standard or Heritage. I watch Fox only occasionally these days. I do read the WSJ religiously, but haven't read the editorial page in years. I watch some CNN. What do you read/watch? Seriously? Because it is concerning that seemingly smart people have such a one-sided view of the situation.
I apparently do follow some of those sources you assert you don't read more than you. I am curious where other than those sources you found reported that there were points "agreed to" by the Dems that Obama then went back on.

So far, you've been masterfully evasive on the point, despite Ty's and other's repeated questions. Fess up and cite Heritage. You know you want to.

Tyrone Slothrop 07-25-2011 03:03 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtclub (Post 456259)
It is in another article being reported today.
His spokesman says it's false. What is your objective view of what Reid's spokesman says?

LessinSF 07-25-2011 03:07 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 456246)
Then a rouge Board of Director refused to sign off on the actual language pointing to some nonsense argument.
Was the argument at least colorable?

Hank Chinaski 07-25-2011 03:08 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LessinSF (Post 456265)
Was the argument at least colorable?
I'll tell you what the judge says in a few minutes. this is a minor point in a 16 page agreement. from a practical point it's stupid to have not signed.

Tyrone Slothrop 07-25-2011 03:08 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LessinSF (Post 456265)
Was the argument at least colorable?
Turns out he hadn't even red it.

Sidd Finch 07-25-2011 03:09 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironweed (Post 456223)
We're always right about that, but it makes no difference.

The problem is that the last two Democratic presidents clearly believe(d) that they had to play the grownup among squabbling children, and they always look to split the difference, thereby encouraging more and more radical starting positions (on both sides, but on the left it doesn't matter because there's no real left in American politics and Dems will go along with a Dem President looking to split the baby 99% of the time anyway).

The model doesn't work in reverse, because two of the last three Republican presidents (and most or all of the most motivated R incumbents in Congress since the extinction of the now-lost-in-the-mists-of-time "Rockefeller Republicans") saw themselves as crusaders with a holy writ to right wrongs and fuck up evildoers, and you don't compromise with the devil.

There is more than a whiff of armageddon-o-philia among the Rs, and it gets stronger every year. I think enough of them have now been reading enough Ayn Rand and cheesy paperback thrillers that there's real support in their ranks for letting the US hit the wall. After all, if the USA is godless, gay, full of immigrants and basically a stalking horse for a socialist world government complete with black helicopters, why wouldn't you want to hit the reset button by smashing everything up?
Fun weekend, huh?

sgtclub 07-25-2011 03:10 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 456264)
His spokesman says it's false. What is your objective view of what Reid's spokesman says?
My objective view is (1) it is false or (2) more likely, Reid needs to deny this for a a negotiating/political reason.

sgtclub 07-25-2011 03:10 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 456263)
I apparently do follow some of those sources you assert you don't read more than you. I am curious where other than those sources you found reported that there were points "agreed to" by the Dems that Obama then went back on.

So far, you've been masterfully evasive on the point, despite Ty's and other's repeated questions. Fess up and cite Heritage. You know you want to.
It was a link on Drudge (which I forgot to mention, I do read) to a right wing blog on the Washington Post site.

Sidd Finch 07-25-2011 03:11 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 456226)
I actually agree with this. The budget is when they should seek reductions, not using covering bills due. Of course, I'm aggressively ignorant on the topic.
I just saw a pig fly past my window.

Hank took a position, and a reasonable one? Weird.

futbol fan 07-25-2011 03:13 PM
Out of control!
 
I know it's not nearly as fascinating as which side is being more sincere than the other in the process of negotiations over their manufactured crisis, which, no matter what else the result, will lead to cuts in benefits to people who can least afford them, but this struck me as funny:

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/20...-marriages/?hp

Quote:
“Constitutional liberties were violated,” the Rev. Jason J. McGuire, the executive director of New Yorkers for Constitutional Freedoms, said in a statement. “Today we are asking the court to intervene in its rightful role as the check and balance on an out-of-control State Legislature.”
That's right! The people's representative body is out of control and needs the court to step in and protect people's Constitutional Freedoms by stopping all those nasty gays from getting married in City Hall.

This sounds vaguely familiar to me, though generally you hear bell-ends like this dick arguing it the opposite way on national issues.

Sidd Finch 07-25-2011 03:14 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtclub (Post 456229)
A Republican aide e-mails me: “The Speaker, Sen. Reid and Sen. McConnell all agreed on the general framework of a two-part plan. A short-term increase (with cuts greater than the increase), combined with a committee to find long-term savings before the rest of the increase would be considered. Sen. Reid took the bipartisan plan to the White House and the President said no.”
From this, you conclude Obama is not being an "honest negotiator"? That's pretty weak.

First, the source.

Second, Obama has said all along that he wants a long-term solution. Usually, saying you want one thing and then continuing to insist on that goal -- while making significant compromises to accomplish it -- is considered "honest."

Third, seriously? A "committee"? What the hell kind of proposal is that? Should they call this one the Gang of 7.5? How many committees have the Rs walked away from, and why should this one be any different?

Sidd Finch 07-25-2011 03:17 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LessinSF (Post 456265)
Was the argument at least colorable?
I'm thinking it was made up.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 07-25-2011 03:18 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidd Finch (Post 456271)
I just saw a pig fly past my window.

Hank took a position, and a reasonable one? Weird.
2. Notch a few wins for Hank. I even agree with this one. It's a breath of fresh air.

Tyrone Slothrop 07-25-2011 04:04 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidd Finch (Post 456273)
From this, you conclude Obama is not being an "honest negotiator"? That's pretty weak.
Objectively, one might think that Reid just gave Republicans what they've been asking for:

Quote:
Something you often see in negotiations is a mismatch between one side’s stated sticking points and its real sticking points. In the debate over the debt ceiling, for example, Republicans have sought to portray themselves as having two bottom lines. One is that any increase in the debt ceiling must be met dollar-for-dollar with spending cuts. The other is that no revenue increases can be part of the deal. What Harry Reid did yesterday was essentially call the GOP’s bluff by outlining a plan that raises the debt ceiling by $2.7 trillion and includes $2.7 trillion in spending cuts, a healthy share of which comes from winding down the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Republicans are rejecting this even though it nominally meets their demands. Why? Because it doesn’t achieve either of their two real objectives. In particular, the plan doesn’t cut Medicare, which means that Democratic party candidates for office in November 2012 and 2014 can accurately remind voters of the content of the Republican budget plan. In case you forgot, this plans repeals Medicare. Having repealed Medicare, it then gives seniors vouchers to purchase more expensive private health insurance. And having replaced Medicare with a voucher system, it then ensures that the vouchers will grow steadily stingier over time. It was only after voting for this plan that Republicans seem to have realized that repealing Medicare is unpopular. Since that time, they’ve been trying to entrap Democrats into reaching some kind of Medicare détente with them, which would immunize them from criticism. Reid’s plan doesn’t do that.

Second, while Reid’s plan doesn’t raise taxes, it also doesn’t take tax increases off the table. Currently, the Bush tax cuts are scheduled to expire in 2012. If Reid’s all-cuts plan passes, that still leaves the door open to significant revenue increases. Now that doesn’t mean this is brilliant 11-dimensional chess. The Reid Plan is consistent with substantial revenues coming online in 2012, but that will only happen if President Obama and Senate Democrats stand firm and play hardball on the tax issue. Back in December 2010, they utterly failed to do so.
Yglesias

eta: On a different point, here's a good Felix Salmon post on the significance of the AAA-rating for US government debt.

Adder 07-25-2011 04:09 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 456277)
Objectively, one might think that Reid just gave Republicans what they've been asking for:



Yglesias
Off my corner, ho.

Cletus Miller 07-25-2011 04:25 PM
Re: My God, you are an idiot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidd Finch (Post 456274)
I'm thinking it was made up.
I'm red-faced on your behalf.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:34 AM.
Page 46 of 125 « First 364445 46 47485696 Last »
Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page

Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.
Hosted By: URLJet.com