Pepper sprayed for public safety.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

see, but I get that. I get that people see abortion or contraception as against the baby Jesus, they actually see it evil. Now, when they say "people that don't believe that shouldn't be able to get an abortion or buy contraception," I say fuck their beliefs. But when the government says "we will spend your tax dollars to do something you think is dragging us all to hell," i feel a bit more sympathy for them.

They're wrong on the issue, but somehow the Gov spending money on stuff they feel is an infamnia feels different. Of course, if you take this to it's conclusion Dennis Kuchinich could stop the military from buying stuff to kill other people, so I know they can't actually sway people.

I feel a little sympathy for them, but then I also feel sympathy for people who, e.g., work for a Catholic hospital but are not Catholic and want to have the sexytime without getting pregnant. We would solve this problem if you could really get health insurance independent of your job, but there you go.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

(There are also a lot of people who fear a socially liberal/fiscally conservative candidate. That candidate would grant people a lot of personal freedom, while absolving them of the duty to be one's brother's keeper many people read into the Constitution, and marginalizing even further the power of our many officious organized religions. It would be liberty as it was intended, which a lot of people think we couldn't handle.)

You seem to be suffering from both Scarboroughism (the belief that what's politically popular is what rich white guys want, if only someone would be brave enough to say it) and Romnesia. Weren't you just saying that people vote for the guy who gives them the most gifts?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?

All I am saying is that it is likely (but I don't have the stats to back me up - sorry) that there were several thousand (million?) people who voted against conservative social values*, and not for Obama.

Weird. When I went to the polling place and looked at the ballot, I got to choose whether to vote for Obama, Romney, Gary Johnson, and some other people I don't remember. I don't remember a way to cast a vote against conservative social values -- that wasn't on the ballot. YMMV.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I'm wondering why your and Hank's perspective allows you to think your votes were in the class of votes that won this election for Obama when there are so many others who voted the same way for other reasons.

TM

Just this. You* will vote for a Dem in 2016 and 2020. You don't know who it is yet, but you will. 30% or 35% or 40% of the country knows now they will vote for a Dem (assuming they do vote). Then there is 30% or 35% or 40% that will vote for an R in each of those elections. It doesn't matter much who the candidate is. After the primaries are over most people in both those camps close ranks. you may not like the candidate, and that may lower turnout, but a solid Dem is not pulling an R lever.

The remaining 20% move one way or another to decide who wins. The reasons they move are what the elections are about.

*I mean the royal (or whatever is the right word) you, not you personally. Perhaps you will change at some time, but the bulk of the solid Dems who always vote Dem will vote Dem every time.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

HCR is not fiscally conservative. It may be necessary, it may be right, but it is in no way conservative.

Obama's the same kind of fiscal centrist that Clinton was. Neither has trimming the size of government as a goal but both believe in paying for what they do.

That should be what the middle cares about.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Weird. When I went to the polling place and looked at the ballot, I got to choose whether to vote for Obama, Romney, Gary Johnson, and some other people I don't remember. I don't remember a way to cast a vote against conservative social values -- that wasn't on the ballot. YMMV.

It was here! And lost badly in the form of demanding papers papers (especially of any "urban" types) before you can vote and embedding marriage discrimination in the constitution.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

Just this. You* will vote for a Dem in 2016 and 2020. You don't know who it is yet, but you will. 30% or 35% or 40% of the country knows now they will vote for a Dem (assuming they do vote). Then there is 30% or 35% or 40% that will vote for an R in each of those elections. It doesn't matter much who the candidate is. After the primaries are over most people in both those camps close ranks. you may not like the candidate, and that may lower turnout, but a solid Dem is not pulling an R lever.

The remaining 20% move one way or another to decide who wins. The reasons they move are what the elections are about.

*I mean the royal (or whatever is the right word) you, not you personally. Perhaps you will change at some time, but the bulk of the solid Dems who always vote Dem will vote Dem every time.

I starting to sense that you really don't get that this is because each party will be roughly the same in the future, not necessarily because everyone votes without thinking.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Adder

It was here!

Yup.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

HCR is not fiscally conservative. It may be necessary, it may be right, but it is in no way conservative.

I had a great time last night on the phone with my sister-in-law, a conservative, southern Republican, but also a physician, listening to her rail about the health insurance companies and express the view that HCR didn't go far enought and we ought to have a single payer. Because dealing with Medicaid was more rational than dealing with Blue Cross.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Adder

I starting to sense that you really don't get that this is because each party will be roughly the same in the future, not necessarily because everyone votes without thinking.

I'm not making fun of you, or insulting you. You can vote for whom you like. But when you start talking about why someone won an election, what drove GGG to vote for Obama is not that big a factor.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

I'm not making fun of you, or insulting you. You can vote for whom you like. But when you start talking about why someone won an election, what drove GGG to vote for Obama is not that big a factor.

I do not know why you think this is an incredibly profound thought, Hank. Yes, it is highly unlikely I will vote for someone other than a D, and it is also highly unlikely my state will go for an R (though we have before, of course).

But as I said before, this election wasn't about what fat old white guys swung or which way they swung it.

It was about groups that didn't vote as much in the past voting more now, and over the (count 'em) last six elections. This is what is shocking Republican operatives right now. In the composition of the electorate, there are more people who think more like me than like you voting in some of these swing states than there used to be.

Yes, there has been a secondary influence of professionals moving to the Dems, and that has been important in some very key states, too, and is more what you are looking at. The states that are trending strongly blue, like Colorado, Virginia, and even North Carolina, are places where both trends are coming together. But other key states, like Ohio and Florida, are more about the new voters than the professionals. Much, much more.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

I do not know why you think this is an incredibly profound thought, Hank. Yes, it is highly unlikely I will vote for someone other than a D, and it is also highly unlikely my state will go for an R (though we have before, of course).

But as I said before, this election wasn't about what fat old white guys swung or which way they swung it.

It was about groups that didn't vote as much in the past voting more now, and over the (count 'em) last six elections. This is what is shocking Republican operatives right now. In the composition of the electorate, there are more people who think more like me than like you voting in some of these swing states than there used to be.

Yes, there has been a secondary influence of professionals moving to the Dems, and that has been important in some very key states, too, and is more what you are looking at. The states that are trending strongly blue, like Colorado, Virginia, and even North Carolina, are places where both trends are coming together. But other key states, like Ohio and Florida, are more about the new voters than the professionals.

I never said it was profound. I was explaining why the reason I voted for Obama was more important to the outcome than why you did. Profound? Really? How much profound shit have you read here?

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Yup.

Don't even pretend like Richard Carlbom (the guy talking) isn't my bestest email buddy (although he seems to have stopped emaiing me a few weeks ago, hmm).

And that's my state senator off to the right in the suit. And maybe kissing his husband as the outburst quieted down (I can't tell for sure).

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I feel a little sympathy for them, but then I also feel sympathy for people who, e.g., work for a Catholic hospital but are not Catholic and want to have the sexytime without getting pregnant. We would solve this problem if you could really get health insurance independent of your job, but there you go.

But those people can work somewhere else, whereas the people paying can't pick a new country.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Adder

Don't even pretend like Richard Carlbom (the guy talking) isn't my bestest email buddy (although he seems to have stopped emaiing me a few weeks ago, hmm).

And that's my state senator off to the right in the suit. And maybe kissing his husband as the outburst quieted down (I can't tell for sure).

Do your IRL "friends" make fun of you too?