Pepper sprayed for public safety.

[Icky Thump]

I am starting to believe that this country should be separated into two: red and blue, stupid and smart.

Why does this happen so much more often in America? Violent culture? Cowboy upbringing? Ease of obtaining guns? Failed social net?

[Icky Thump]

is the first nut job going to suggest that this was planned so Obama could take our guns away?

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Icky Thump

is the first nut job going to suggest that this was planned so Obama could take our guns away?

Must have already happened b

[Icky Thump]

Dunno, maybe this is the trigger that makes the aliens come down on 12/21?

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Icky Thump

Dunno, maybe this is the trigger that makes the aliens come down on 12/21?

What I'd like to know is why so many people on FB (my wife has an account) are pontificating about how some broader trend in society ("breakdown of the family," materialism, kids doing too much online gaming, etc.) is the real cause.

The evidence is clear. The kid was mentally ill. There may have been contributing stressors at work, but ultimately, a deranged mind, which none of us could ever hope to understand, pulled the trigger. Why is that an insufficient explanation? Why can't it be what we logically recognize: An unpredictable act of an aberrantly functioning brain? An outlier so unfathomable no amount of vigilance could have prevented it?

I guess people want to feel there's some way they can understand every bit of our world, all the way down to things as disturbing as this. That however unexplainable something is, it can nevertheless be shoehorned into some sort of pattern, or is part of some bigger phenomenon. It can't be. It isn't. There will never be an explanation other than "Madman kills 20 children." And thank God for that. If this were in any way connectable to some broader social or cultural shift, or trend, or neglect, it would be even more horrifying.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

What I'd like to know is why so many people on FB (my wife has an account) are pontificating about how some broader trend in society ("breakdown of the family," materialism, kids doing too much online gaming, etc.) is the real cause.

The evidence is clear. The kid was mentally ill. There may have been contributing stressors at work, but ultimately, a deranged mind, which none of us could ever hope to understand, pulled the trigger. Why is that an insufficient explanation? Why can't it be what we logically recognize: An unpredictable act of an aberrantly functioning brain? An outlier so unfathomable no amount of vigilance could have prevented it?

I guess people want to feel there's some way they can understand every bit of our world, all the way down to things as disturbing as this. That however unexplainable something is, it can nevertheless be shoehorned into some sort of pattern, or is part of some bigger phenomenon. It can't be. It isn't. There will never be an explanation other than "Madman kills 20 children." And thank God for that. If this were in any way connectable to some broader social or cultural shift, or trend, or neglect, it would be even more horrifying.

We have a society in which an extraordinary number of such people choose to shoot up schools. There is a problem, and it is getting worse. You may not be able to understand one, but what about 20?

The stats on gun violence in America are also pretty damning. Start here for some disturbing correlations. We have an organization of over 4 million Americans that supports the proliferation of automatic weaponry in our society and argues that "armed citizens" are something good in its own right - not hunters, not people shooting competitive, people whose "arming" is part of their "citizenship". That is, to my mind, a terrorist organization more dangerous than any on our various lists. And it owns one of the political parties and half of the other one.

And, think how this looks to the rest of the world.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

What I'd like to know is why so many people on FB (my wife has an account) are pontificating about how some broader trend in society ("breakdown of the family," materialism, kids doing too much online gaming, etc.) is the real cause.

The evidence is clear. The kid was mentally ill. There may have been contributing stressors at work, but ultimately, a deranged mind, which none of us could ever hope to understand, pulled the trigger. Why is that an insufficient explanation? Why can't it be what we logically recognize: An unpredictable act of an aberrantly functioning brain? An outlier so unfathomable no amount of vigilance could have prevented it?

I guess people want to feel there's some way they can understand every bit of our world, all the way down to things as disturbing as this. That however unexplainable something is, it can nevertheless be shoehorned into some sort of pattern, or is part of some bigger phenomenon. It can't be. It isn't. There will never be an explanation other than "Madman kills 20 children." And thank God for that. If this were in any way connectable to some broader social or cultural shift, or trend, or neglect, it would be even more horrifying.

I don't remember any mass murders in schools when I was growing up. My kids heard of several. If nothing else, why are there more deranged now?

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

I don't remember any mass murders in schools when I was growing up. My kids heard of several. If nothing else, why are there more deranged now?

It's not that there are more deranged people now. It's that, after Columbine, crazy people have an idea--a plan they've seen in action already. And video games, movies and tv expand on, or give color to, that idea. If you can see yourself doing it as you play a game, you can see yourself doing it, period.

But the core or fundamental problem is access to guns. It is way too easy and has become easier to access the types of weapons to carry out a Columbine-style attack. I accept no other argument about why this is happening. Take away these guns and people live. That's all there is to it.

TM

[Icky Thump]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

It's not that there are more deranged people now. It's that, after Columbine, crazy people have an idea--a plan they've seen in action already. And video games, movies and tv expand on, or give color to, that idea. If you can see yourself doing it as you play a game, you can see yourself doing it, period.

But the core or fundamental problem is access to guns. It is way too easy and has become easier to access the types of weapons to carry out a Columbine-style attack. I accept no other argument about why this is happening. Take away these guns and people live. That's all there is to it.

TM

But that ain't America. We'd rather have our "freedom" at the cost of several dozen young lives. From an editorial in the NYT by a guy who's kid was killed in a school shooting:

>>In the wake of Galen’s murder, I wrote a book about the shooting. In it I suggested that we view gun crime as a public health issue, much the same as smoking or pesticides. I spent a number of years attending rallies, signing petitions, writing letters and making speeches, but eventually I gave up. Gun control, such a live issue in the “early” days of school shootings, inexplicably became a third-rail issue for politicians.

I came to realize that, in essence, this is the way we in America want things to be. We want our freedom, and we want our firearms, and if we have to endure the occasional school shooting, so be it.

I will note that to get into the real important places: Congress, Federal Courthouses and planes, you DO have to go through a metal detector.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Icky Thump

I am starting to believe that this country should be separated into two: red and blue, stupid and smart.

Why does this happen so much more often in America? Violent culture? Cowboy upbringing? Ease of obtaining guns? Failed social net?

All of the above. But I think the biggest reason is that we have broken down as a community. Fifty years ago, the people in the Lanza's circle: family, neighbors, friends, would have seen signs that the boy was troubled and they woulld have shared responsibility for keeping an eye on him. If he needed constant care, then he would have been put in a hospital where he could receive that kind of attention.

The picture I drew above is seen through rose-colored glasses. There were a lot of problems, abuses, and neglect in some mental health facility. Some communities were more closed in. Birds didn't sing every morning as the sun glinted off the brightly polished hood of dad's Buick. But the fact is, there was more of a sense of a social contract. People looked after each other more.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

We have a society in which an extraordinary number of such people choose to shoot up schools. There is a problem, and it is getting worse. You may not be able to understand one, but what about 20?

The stats on gun violence in America are also pretty damning. Start here for some disturbing correlations. We have an organization of over 4 million Americans that supports the proliferation of automatic weaponry in our society and argues that "armed citizens" are something good in its own right - not hunters, not people shooting competitive, people whose "arming" is part of their "citizenship". That is, to my mind, a terrorist organization more dangerous than any on our various lists. And it owns one of the political parties and half of the other one.

And, think how this looks to the rest of the world.

The data Ezra Klein compiled is actually mixed. http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wo...united-states/

It appears violence has recently been decreasing, and mass killings have regularly occurred for decades. It also confirms that gun control does lead to a drop in gun killings.

I don't own guns, and never will, but I am troubled by efforts to excessively control them, and understand why gun people fight them with such determination. If you have defended criminals, you understand the imbalance of power between the individual and the state. I shudder to think of a country where the only people with handguns are law enforcement and government.

I would, however, favor a system in which handguns were barred for both law enforcement and domestic govt agents, and regular citizens. But that's simply fantastic thinking.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by taxwonk

All of the above. But I think the biggest reason is that we have broken down as a community. Fifty years ago, the people in the Lanza's circle: family, neighbors, friends, would have seen signs that the boy was troubled and they woulld have shared responsibility for keeping an eye on him. If he needed constant care, then he would have been put in a hospital where he could receive that kind of attention.

The picture I drew above is seen through rose-colored glasses. There were a lot of problems, abuses, and neglect in some mental health facility. Some communities were more closed in. Birds didn't sing every morning as the sun glinted off the brightly polished hood of dad's Buick. But the fact is, there was more of a sense of a social contract. People looked after each other more.

The chain of causation there requires a dozen links you haven't offered. And I could cite the enhanced attention given to the mentally ill, most of whom were ignored in the past, to turn your assumption/theory on its ear.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Icky Thump

Dunno, maybe this is the trigger that makes the aliens come down on 12/21?

For Newtown, Connecticut, the Mayans basically had it right.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

It's not that there are more deranged people now. It's that, after Columbine, crazy people have an idea--a plan they've seen in action already. And video games, movies and tv expand on, or give color to, that idea. If you can see yourself doing it as you play a game, you can see yourself doing it, period.

But the core or fundamental problem is access to guns. It is way too easy and has become easier to access the types of weapons to carry out a Columbine-style attack. I accept no other argument about why this is happening. Take away these guns and people live. That's all there is to it.

TM

The copycat thing is scary, and each of these killings looks a lot like the last one.
If we want to generally assume character flaws in society are to blame, then it'd be narcissism, I guess. I'd actually like to see that addressed. I'd love to see The endless parade of self important people telling me all about their awesome lives on social media told, "Your content is dull. You're not a bad person. Just not remarkably fascinating either, and so you should not expect or seek fame or any form of broader social attention. And no - you may not get mad about this."

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I could cite the enhanced attention given to the mentally ill, most of whom were ignored in the past, to turn your assumption/theory on its ear.

This is exactly backwards. In most states, and specifically in New England, there used to be a lot more institutionalization of the mentally ill. Under the guise of improving care by placing people in the community, the institutions were closed (~ twenty years ago, more or less) and very sick people were put out on their own. When it's budget time, these people don't have much clout to get funding.

I guess I think there is a huge copycat function happening, which is that this sick individual in Newtown ideates around what happened at Columbine and Virginia Tech and so on, and follows their lead. The same thing happens with suicides -- in the Bay Area, e.g., lots of people jump off the Golden Gate Bridge.

I don't know what you do to stop it, but I would like to see the President and Congress create an expert commission to go and work full-time on it for a year and then come back with recommendations. Because the tide of media coverage about how the events are inexplicably horrible are part of the problem.