Towards A Virtual Williamsburg!

[Fugee]

Originally Posted by Adder

Yes. I do not understand the insistence that it's in no way about sex. I'm sure there is a particular reason for it, but I don't know what it is.

To me, when you deny the obvious, you close off thinking about a key set of factors that could help reduce sexual violence.

I don't think anyone is arguing that it is in no way about sex -- if you think so, you haven't been paying attention.

I'm curious what you think the key factors are that could help reduce sexual violence.

Sebby seems to think if only there were no societal limitations on purely recreational sex for either men or women, then men wouldn't rape. I'm not entirely clear whether this is because then men would get all the sex & variety they want or because they wouldn't have confused feelings about women they put in the category of sluts/whores or some other reason.

I don't believe it. Even in Sebby's "perfect" world, people are going to rape and it won't be because they want sex. I don't believe those boys in Steubenville assaulted that girl because they couldn't get laid. I suspect there were any number of girls around who'd be thrilled to hook up with the town football stars. Maybe even the girl they assaulted if they asked her when she wasn't passed out drunk.

I say sex is the weapon, not the reason.

[Fugee]

Originally Posted by Adder

Because what you want to take from her is sex. How is that not sexual?

Actually I think what the rapist wants to take is the victim's right and power to say no.

Do you really think that people who rape elderly women actually want geriatric sex or that they can't find someone younger and willing?

One of the problems of making rape primarily about sex is that it leads to victim blaming and saying or suggesting that it wouldn't have happened if she didn't dress provocatively, didn't act so flirty, wasn't so slutty......

I can't speak for Egyptian culture, but I think it is fair to say that pretty much any man walking around free in the U.S. these days can have sex if he wants it. It may not be with a woman as attractive as he wants unless he's willing to pay for it, but no one needs to rape here to get sex. So why do they rape if it's about sex?

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Fugee

I can't speak for Egyptian culture, but I think it is fair to say that pretty much any man walking around free in the U.S. these days can have sex if he wants it.

I can't recall, have we retired "Adder can't get laid" jokes?

[Adder]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Jesus Christ, man. When you agree this violently with Sebby you gotta be thinking, "What the fuck is going on?"

I think you are misunderstanding what the fuck people are saying. I don't think there is a person in the world who would say rape isn't "about" sex. It's a sexual act. There is a sexual component. Yes, it's "about" sex.

The question is, "Why does it happen?" It happens because someone who is a position of power exercises that power over someone else. That is why people constantly say it is a crime "about" power and control.

Whatever. I'm done with this argument. It's fucking stupid.

TM

Thurgreed, people say is isn't about sex all the time.

[Fugee]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

I can't recall, have we retired "Adder can't get laid" jokes?

Now that he's engaged and his fiance moved in, we have to evolve. Now it has to be "Adder's fiance has a permanent headache" or "Mrs. Adder kicked him to the couch" jokes.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Adder

Thurgreed, people say is isn't about sex all the time.

It's called "Sexual Assault" in most states. Of course there is some connection to "sex." I think what people were disagreeing with is the idea that it is driven by a desire to have sex, and Sebby's theory that if we only all loosened up a bit the problem would deminish. As both Thurgreed and fugee* have said, if someone simply wanted sexual release a bit of cash can get you that. And, as I said, Steubenville wasn't about sexual release at all.






*And I believe a fair rule for here is that when Thurgreed and Fugee both agree, and disagree with you, you may be wrong.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Fugee

I'm curious what you think the key factors are that could help reduce sexual violence.

I think a society in which sex wasn't "dirty" and defiling, there would be much less power in using it as a weapon against women.

I think in a society in which women are allowed to have sexual agency, there would be less power in forcing a woman into sex.

I think in a society with significantly freer access to sex (and sexual services) there would be fewer sexually frustrated and angry young men seeking to exert power over women sexually.

None of that eliminates rape -- nothing ever will -- but it helps, and it flows from accepting that sex is most definitely a motivating factor in rape.

Sebby seems to think if only there were no societal limitations on purely recreational sex for either men or women, then men wouldn't rape.

I don't think he said that.

I don't believe those boys in Steubenville assaulted that girl because they couldn't get laid.

You've made the same silly error as Thurgreed. Whether they could get laid or not, sex was a way of degrading that girl. It would be less degrading in a society that does not view sex as inherently degrading, especially for women.

Also, you don't know whether they could get laid. Thurgreed thinks anyone can at a moment's notice. That's not true, and even if it were true in theory, it doesn't feel true, especially to sexually frustrated young men.

I say sex is the weapon, not the reason.

I say that is sometime true, but not always.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Fugee

Actually I think what the rapist wants to take is the victim's right and power to say no.

I think the world is more complicated than you allow for.

Do you really think that people who rape elderly women actually want geriatric sex or that they can't find someone younger and willing?

Do you really think a set of exceptions proves the rule? Do you really think there is a lot of geriatric rape? Do you really think that no one could possibly fetishize the geriatric?

One of the problems of making rape primarily about sex is that it leads to victim blaming and saying or suggesting that it wouldn't have happened if she didn't dress provocatively, didn't act so flirty, wasn't so slutty......

Who said "primarily?"

And how? How is recognizing that sex a motivation inherently victim blaming?

I suspect that you are right, and that's the origin of the dogmatic insistence that it's only about power, but I don't follow the logic.

It can be partially about sex without that meaning the the victim was asking for it.

I can't speak for Egyptian culture, but I think it is fair to say that pretty much any man walking around free in the U.S. these days can have sex if he wants it.

Oh you can, can you? That's your vast experience talking?

It may not be with a woman as attractive as he wants unless he's willing to pay for it, but no one needs to rape here to get sex. So why do they rape if it's about sex?

Again, what do you think this proves? Men could have sex without raping, but they can also have sex by raping. And they do.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

It's called "Sexual Assault" in most states. Of course there is some connection to "sex." I think what people were disagreeing with is the idea that it is driven by a desire to have sex, and Sebby's theory that if we only all loosened up a bit the problem would deminish. As both Thurgreed and fugee* have said, if someone simply wanted sexual release a bit of cash can get you that. And, as I said, Steubenville wasn't about sexual release at all.



*And I believe a fair rule for here is that when Thurgreed and Fugee both agree, and disagree with you, you may be wrong.

I'm not sure folks are keeping in mind how many sexual assaults are date rapes and similar circumstances.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally Posted by Fugee

I don't think anyone is arguing that it is in no way about sex -- if you think so, you haven't been paying attention.

I'm curious what you think the key factors are that could help reduce sexual violence.

Sebby seems to think if only there were no societal limitations on purely recreational sex for either men or women, then men wouldn't rape. I'm not entirely clear whether this is because then men would get all the sex & variety they want or because they wouldn't have confused feelings about women they put in the category of sluts/whores or some other reason.

I don't believe it. Even in Sebby's "perfect" world, people are going to rape and it won't be because they want sex. I don't believe those boys in Steubenville assaulted that girl because they couldn't get laid. I suspect there were any number of girls around who'd be thrilled to hook up with the town football stars. Maybe even the girl they assaulted if they asked her when she wasn't passed out drunk.

I say sex is the weapon, not the reason.

There is plenty of sexual assault (and not in the BDSM way, though there's a lot of that too) in Burner communities, and those communities can have very few societal limitations when it comes to sex.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Adder

Thurgreed, people say is isn't about sex all the time.

I think you're way too focused on the word, "about." Like Fugee said, sex is the weapon. But the crime is about dominance and power.

You are not going to get it. That's all there is to it. You and Sebby apparently think that because sometimes rape occurs because of lust that that makes it about sex. In this case specifically, I don't know how you come to that conclusion. When it comes to geriatric rape, I don't know how you come to that conclusion. Given what we know about prison rape, war rape and slave rape, I don't know how you come to that conclusion. Given the fact that, in every case, the powerful rape those who are not powerful, I don't know how you come to that conclusion. But if you really think it's about a guy just wanting some sex, I'm no longer going to try to disavow you of that opinion.

TM

[Adder]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I think you're way too focused on the word, "about." Like Fugee said, sex is the weapon. But the crime is about dominance and power.

You are not going to get it. That's all there is to it. You and Sebby apparently think that because sometimes rape occurs because of lust that that makes it about sex. In this case specifically, I don't know how you come to that conclusion. When it comes to geriatric rape, I don't know how you come to that conclusion. Given what we know about prison rape, war rape and slave rape, I don't know how you come to that conclusion. Given the fact that, in every case, the powerful rape those who are not powerful, I don't know how you come to that conclusion. But if you really think it's about a guy just wanting some sex, I'm no longer going to try to disavow you of that opinion.

TM

I've not gone back to confirm, but I don't think you've managed a single post without contradicting yourself.

You keep trying to insist that when people say rape is "about" power and control that doesn't mean "exclusively about" but also that rape isn't "about" sex. Which means you're saying it's exclusively about power and control.

As I said to Fugee, I don't know how much geriatric rape there is. Do you? I'd assume very little. I'd also assume that, hard as it is for you and me to imagine, there are certainly people who find the geriatric sexually arousing.

And prison rape? You're kidding? There is an entire culture of acceptable man-on-man sex that's not viewed as gay, some of which of which is non-consensual, and we're going to conclude that makes the non-consensual part not about sex? It's about both.

And how many times do I have to say it's not "just" for you to once respond without acting as though I'm saying it's "just" sex?

Our society is deeply fucked up about sex. We all want it, but we're supposed to behave as if we don't, especially if we're female. We're not supposed to do it except in certain closely limited circumstance, yet many of us are anyway, which is all the more frustrating to those who aren't. Worse, if you do it, your God may send you to hell, causing particular distress if you ever give in to your nature. Finally, your partner isn't supposed to want it, so why wouldn't she say no?

It's a powder-keg of mental and emotional tensions that expresses itself in all kinds of ways, not least contributing to rape.

ETA: I also think you're focusing much too much on the exceptions. Prison rape, geriatric rape, rape during war time, these are not the typical rape. The typical rape is that Jenny got loaded at the frat party, or out on a date, and Jim Bob thought no (or passed out silence) meant yes.

Perhaps Jim Bob was angry and violent and trying to assert his power over Jenny, or perhaps he wanted to get off and didn't give a fuck about whether she wanted to participate, or assumed that she wanted to participate but that she couldn't or wouldn't say that.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Adder

I'm not sure folks are keeping in mind how many sexual assaults are date rapes and similar circumstances.

Be careful here. The term date rape is often used as an excuse to minimize premeditated violent criminal acts because they happen between two people who know each other. Do we play down a knifing because it occurred between two people who knew each other? Oh, that was a date knifing, no big deal.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Adder

I think a society in which sex wasn't "dirty" and defiling, there would be much less power in using it as a weapon against women.

I think is a society in which women are allowed to have sexual agency, there would be less power in forcing a woman into sex.

Yo, what the fuck are you talking about? Are you telling me that there is less power behind rape when someone is raped in the US as opposed to Iran? Are you insane? No matter what society's feelings about sex are, forcing someone to have it when they don't want to is fucking horrible. It's violative and disempowering (which brings us back to the main point).

Originally Posted by Adder

You've made the same silly error as Thurgreed. Whether they could get laid or not, sex was a way of degrading that girl. It would be less degrading in a society that does not view sex as inherently degrading, especially for women.

This is just unbelievably stupid. Yes, in a society where dicks in your mouth are no big deal, having dicks inserted into your mouth against your will and having photos taken (and distributed) of those dicks and that mouth, it's not as bad. Saying that it's worse for a woman in Iran--who would be mercy-killed for having dicks inserted in her mouth and photos taken (both against her will)--than it would be here I suppose is true. But you're removing the effect on the woman from the equation. The degradation comes from her loss of power and from her being treated as something less than human. What society thinks of that is largely irrelevant from her perspective. Your focus is on what other people will think of her. And maybe that's why you don't see this as an issue of power and control.

Originally Posted by Adder

Also, you don't know whether they could get laid. Thurgreed thinks anyone can at a moment's notice. That's not true, and even if it were true in theory, it doesn't feel true, especially to sexually frustrated young men.

Once again, in this case, they didn't even have sex with this girl. So, what exactly was this sexual assault about? It sure as hell wasn't lust.

Second, you can't pull shit out of my post and act like it's a direct quotation unless you actually use the whole quotation. I said it's easier and less risky to find sex elsewhere than it is to rape someone. If you don't believe that, I don't know what to tell you.

TM

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Adder

I've not gone back to confirm, but I don't think you've managed a single post without contradicting yourself.

You keep trying to insist that when people say rape is "about" power and control that doesn't mean "exclusively about" but also that rape isn't "about" sex. Which means you're saying it's exclusively about power and control.

As I said to Fugee, I don't know how much geriatric rape there is. Do you? I'd assume very little. I'd also assume that, hard as it is for you and me to imagine, there are certainly people who find the geriatric sexually arousing.

And prison rape? You're kidding? There is an entire culture of acceptable man-on-man sex that's not viewed as gay, some of which of which is non-consensual, and we're going to conclude that makes the non-consensual part not about sex? It's about both.

And how many times do I have to say it's not "just" for you to once respond without acting as though I'm saying it's "just" sex?

Our society is deeply fucked up about sex. We all want it, but we're supposed to behave as if we don't, especially if we're female. We're not supposed to do it except in certain closely limited circumstance, yet many of us are anyway, which is all the more frustrating to those who aren't. Worse, if you do it, your God may send you to hell, causing particular distress if you ever give in to your nature. Finally, your partner isn't supposed to want it, so why wouldn't she say no?

It's a powder-keg of mental and emotional tensions that expresses itself in all kinds of ways, not least contributing to rape.

ETA: I also think you're focusing much too much on the exceptions. Prison rape, geriatric rape, rape during war time, these are not the typical rape. The typical rape is that Jenny got loaded at the frat party, or out on a date, and Jim Bob thought no (or passed out silence) meant yes.

Perhaps Jim Bob was angry and violent and trying to assert his power over Jenny, or perhaps he wanted to get off and didn't give a fuck about whether she wanted to participate, or assumed that she wanted to participate but that she couldn't or wouldn't say that.

I give up. For real this time.

TM