Towards A Virtual Williamsburg!

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by ltl/fb

What is this "court" of which y'all seem to be speaking? Bouncy yellow balls? Rackets?

It used to be called "courting" but now the cool kids call it "taking depositions" and are more casual about the whole thing. It's when lawyers get together in cities where neither of them live to "play footsie".

[Icky Thump]

Originally Posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?

I like engineers. Some of them can be excellent witnesses, and they are generally good people. It's the architects that drive me crazy.

For defendants when espousing defense principles, related to why black isn't white maybe. When testifying in their own PI case as to why gray is black and white at the same time, not so much.

[Atticus Grinch]

Dear Brain Trust:

The church we attend is in a densely developed residential neighborhood -- 5,000 sq. ft. lots and overbuilt so not much for backyards. All of the adjacent neighbors are single family residences. The back fence runs about 400 feet and is the shared property line fence with six neighbors. Under California law, a property line fence is jointly maintained by both affected owners. In the past, when stretches of the fence were on the verge of collapse, the church would repair the fence with an agreement the neighbors would reimburse 50% of the repair cost, consistent with the law, but because the labor was always volunteer and the materials were typically less than $200 for each repair, we always ate the full cost, as a gesture of goodwill to the neighbors. One neighbor has been a bit of a dick by anonymously calling Code Compliance about visible recycling bins and such, but mostly we all get along with minimal contact.

Recently one of the houses changed hands and the new neighbors, as part of some landscaping work in their (tiny) back yard, installed a gate (?!?) in the fence. The church has been there since 1950 and there's never been a gate -- that part of the property is steeply sloped and overgrown -- kinda treacherous. The place they installed it is in the understory of a massive pine tree and was so heavily screened that we didn't even know about it until several days after it was installed. We'd planned on politely contacting our new neighbors to introduce ourselves and gently say WTAF but before that could even happen, a charity concert at the church was interrupted by 20 kids playing baseball (loudly) on our front lawn -- the overflow from a First Communion party the family was holding at the same time (they are not parishioners). Fortunately our priest was at the concert and walked over to address the noise/trespass issue. The dad was very apologetic but the mom was defensive -- "It's our fence, too; we can put a gate in it" etc. And then she says (and this is the part I'm curious about) "We didn't realize it was private property."

Okay, so, I'm thinking that's a flat-out lie -- that it's impossible to be a grown adult who can afford a $900K house and somehow think that churches are public facilities. Am I too deep into it to really know what's plausibly believed about the relationship between churches and the public? From contextual clues I think they're Catholic but I'm not sure most Catholics know how rigorously use of their church's property must be reviewed. I want to be fair rather than jump to the conclusion she's a chiseler.

Anyway, they broke up the baseball game at our request, and our priest e-mailed them days later inviting them to coffee -- no response yet.

All thoughts appreciated, including how you see this playing out. The priest looks to me on land use issues but I would advise him to be conciliatory if anyone thought the issue was at all close. I've got to reconcile the folks who want to bolt the gate shut on our side with others who think that will make things worse.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch

Dear Brain Trust:

The church we attend is in a densely developed residential neighborhood -- 5,000 sq. ft. lots and overbuilt so not much for backyards. All of the adjacent neighbors are single family residences. The back fence runs about 400 feet and is the shared property line fence with six neighbors. Under California law, a property line fence is jointly maintained by both affected owners. In the past, when stretches of the fence were on the verge of collapse, the church would repair the fence with an agreement the neighbors would reimburse 50% of the repair cost, consistent with the law, but because the labor was always volunteer and the materials were typically less than $200 for each repair, we always ate the full cost, as a gesture of goodwill to the neighbors. One neighbor has been a bit of a dick by anonymously calling Code Compliance about visible recycling bins and such, but mostly we all get along with minimal contact.

Recently one of the houses changed hands and the new neighbors, as part of some landscaping work in their (tiny) back yard, installed a gate (?!?) in the fence. The church has been there since 1950 and there's never been a gate -- that part of the property is steeply sloped and overgrown -- kinda treacherous. The place they installed it is in the understory of a massive pine tree and was so heavily screened that we didn't even know about it until several days after it was installed. We'd planned on politely contacting our new neighbors to introduce ourselves and gently say WTAF but before that could even happen, a charity concert at the church was interrupted by 20 kids playing baseball (loudly) on our front lawn -- the overflow from a First Communion party the family was holding at the same time (they are not parishioners). Fortunately our priest was at the concert and walked over to address the noise/trespass issue. The dad was very apologetic but the mom was defensive -- "It's our fence, too; we can put a gate in it" etc. And then she says (and this is the part I'm curious about) "We didn't realize it was private property."

Okay, so, I'm thinking that's a flat-out lie -- that it's impossible to be a grown adult who can afford a $900K house and somehow think that churches are public facilities. Am I too deep into it to really know what's plausibly believed about the relationship between churches and the public? From contextual clues I think they're Catholic but I'm not sure most Catholics know how rigorously use of their church's property must be reviewed. I want to be fair rather than jump to the conclusion she's a chiseler.

Anyway, they broke up the baseball game at our request, and our priest e-mailed them days later inviting them to coffee -- no response yet.

All thoughts appreciated, including how you see this playing out. The priest looks to me on land use issues but I would advise him to be conciliatory if anyone thought the issue was at all close. I've got to reconcile the folks who want to bolt the gate shut on our side with others who think that will make things worse.

go to an animal shelter, you'll probably need to go to a neighborhood a bit poorer than yours, and get two rabid pit bulls. Tie them up just beyond the gate.

Next question?

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch

Dear Brain Trust:

The church we attend is in a densely developed residential neighborhood -- 5,000 sq. ft. lots and overbuilt so not much for backyards. All of the adjacent neighbors are single family residences. The back fence runs about 400 feet and is the shared property line fence with six neighbors. Under California law, a property line fence is jointly maintained by both affected owners. In the past, when stretches of the fence were on the verge of collapse, the church would repair the fence with an agreement the neighbors would reimburse 50% of the repair cost, consistent with the law, but because the labor was always volunteer and the materials were typically less than $200 for each repair, we always ate the full cost, as a gesture of goodwill to the neighbors. One neighbor has been a bit of a dick by anonymously calling Code Compliance about visible recycling bins and such, but mostly we all get along with minimal contact.

Recently one of the houses changed hands and the new neighbors, as part of some landscaping work in their (tiny) back yard, installed a gate (?!?) in the fence. The church has been there since 1950 and there's never been a gate -- that part of the property is steeply sloped and overgrown -- kinda treacherous. The place they installed it is in the understory of a massive pine tree and was so heavily screened that we didn't even know about it until several days after it was installed. We'd planned on politely contacting our new neighbors to introduce ourselves and gently say WTAF but before that could even happen, a charity concert at the church was interrupted by 20 kids playing baseball (loudly) on our front lawn -- the overflow from a First Communion party the family was holding at the same time (they are not parishioners). Fortunately our priest was at the concert and walked over to address the noise/trespass issue. The dad was very apologetic but the mom was defensive -- "It's our fence, too; we can put a gate in it" etc. And then she says (and this is the part I'm curious about) "We didn't realize it was private property."

Okay, so, I'm thinking that's a flat-out lie -- that it's impossible to be a grown adult who can afford a $900K house and somehow think that churches are public facilities. Am I too deep into it to really know what's plausibly believed about the relationship between churches and the public? From contextual clues I think they're Catholic but I'm not sure most Catholics know how rigorously use of their church's property must be reviewed. I want to be fair rather than jump to the conclusion she's a chiseler.

Anyway, they broke up the baseball game at our request, and our priest e-mailed them days later inviting them to coffee -- no response yet.

All thoughts appreciated, including how you see this playing out. The priest looks to me on land use issues but I would advise him to be conciliatory if anyone thought the issue was at all close. I've got to reconcile the folks who want to bolt the gate shut on our side with others who think that will make things worse.

My favorite kind of "don't cross this line" mechanism tends to be the quick growing, dense, thorny perennial kind. Under ordinary circumstances, I'd recommend bougainvillea, mutabalis, or mermaid. In your part of the world, I've had great success with blackberries for a similar mission. They're nearly inpeneterable. But the tree probably blocks the sun needed for these guys. And you said it was already fairly overgrown.

The fine legal details of fence owneship and gate installation might be up for discussion and/or interpretation, but tresspass is tresspass, and gate use, without the permission of the person on the other side is pretty clearly tresspass.

I'd be prepared for noise and traffic complaints if this escalates, so it probably needs to be handled by the cooler heads of the group.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch

Dear Brain Trust:

The church we attend is in a densely developed residential neighborhood -- 5,000 sq. ft. lots and overbuilt so not much for backyards. All of the adjacent neighbors are single family residences. The back fence runs about 400 feet and is the shared property line fence with six neighbors. Under California law, a property line fence is jointly maintained by both affected owners. In the past, when stretches of the fence were on the verge of collapse, the church would repair the fence with an agreement the neighbors would reimburse 50% of the repair cost, consistent with the law, but because the labor was always volunteer and the materials were typically less than $200 for each repair, we always ate the full cost, as a gesture of goodwill to the neighbors. One neighbor has been a bit of a dick by anonymously calling Code Compliance about visible recycling bins and such, but mostly we all get along with minimal contact.

Recently one of the houses changed hands and the new neighbors, as part of some landscaping work in their (tiny) back yard, installed a gate (?!?) in the fence. The church has been there since 1950 and there's never been a gate -- that part of the property is steeply sloped and overgrown -- kinda treacherous. The place they installed it is in the understory of a massive pine tree and was so heavily screened that we didn't even know about it until several days after it was installed. We'd planned on politely contacting our new neighbors to introduce ourselves and gently say WTAF but before that could even happen, a charity concert at the church was interrupted by 20 kids playing baseball (loudly) on our front lawn -- the overflow from a First Communion party the family was holding at the same time (they are not parishioners). Fortunately our priest was at the concert and walked over to address the noise/trespass issue. The dad was very apologetic but the mom was defensive -- "It's our fence, too; we can put a gate in it" etc. And then she says (and this is the part I'm curious about) "We didn't realize it was private property."

Okay, so, I'm thinking that's a flat-out lie -- that it's impossible to be a grown adult who can afford a $900K house and somehow think that churches are public facilities. Am I too deep into it to really know what's plausibly believed about the relationship between churches and the public? From contextual clues I think they're Catholic but I'm not sure most Catholics know how rigorously use of their church's property must be reviewed. I want to be fair rather than jump to the conclusion she's a chiseler.

Anyway, they broke up the baseball game at our request, and our priest e-mailed them days later inviting them to coffee -- no response yet.

All thoughts appreciated, including how you see this playing out. The priest looks to me on land use issues but I would advise him to be conciliatory if anyone thought the issue was at all close. I've got to reconcile the folks who want to bolt the gate shut on our side with others who think that will make things worse.

Our church never locks its doors; God's house is always open to everyone, even if they fail to properly appreciate the miracle of transubstantiation (of course, communion not always open unless you do appreciate the miracle).

If kids want to play in the back lot, the biggest real impediment is the risk that one or more of the Priests will decide to play with them. How is your Priest's fastball?

This provided a bit of a problem in the archdiocese during the "troubles", as they are so euphemistically called. When the diocese wanted to shut down churches, parishioners simply walked in to the churches and began a round-the-clock vigil. There were some churches where there were people praying for a couple of years while the archdiocese tried to figure out how to handle it.

By the way, I grew up Anglican and my father was a priest: same policy, perhaps even more aggressively. All were always welcome. Always. If you think of this as a land-use matter rather than an ecclesiastic issue, the pagans have won.

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

By the way, I grew up Anglican and my father was a priest: same policy, perhaps even more aggressively. All were always welcome. Always. If you think of this as a land-use matter rather than an ecclesiastic issue, the pagans have won.

I was prepared to take that position before the baseball incident. The person I was when I was growing up would have played baseball* when no one was there, but a full parking lot and cello music coming from inside? Fuhgeddaboutit. And I would have yelled "Scatter!" upon seeing a man in black, for sure. But the mom seems pretty fucking entitled, and your position shows me she's not making it up, so thanks for the data point.

*I probably would have been the one saying "Guys, I don't think we should be doing this" but the other boys would have won out.

ETA: I probably failed to communicate in my first post that the church's property is probably 400' x 100', meaning the baseball game wasn't occurring on a back lot -- it was on the front lawn, 20 feet from the concert. So it's not like the two things could happen simultaneously with only a little bit of compromise.

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan

I'd be prepared for noise and traffic complaints if this escalates, so it probably needs to be handled by the cooler heads of the group.

Yeah, the things people do to neighbors, utterly without remorse, is rivaled only by what they will do to former spouses. I think we'll forego the blackberry option.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch

Yeah, the things people do to neighbors, utterly without remorse, is rivaled only by what they will do to former spouses. I think we'll forego the blackberry option.

Only thing I would add is that relatives who are far from indigent bought a house and had the property boundaries misrepresented to them. Ensuingly, they build a fence and gazebo on land that wasn't theirs, leading to unneighborly confrontations. They never would have built what they did had they started with good information. Maybe it's possible that The Wealthy Chiseler was misinformed in some way?

[Flinty_McFlint]

Originally Posted by atticus grinch

dear brain trust:

The church we attend is in a densely developed residential neighborhood -- 5,000 sq. Ft. Lots and overbuilt so not much for backyards. All of the adjacent neighbors are single family residences. The back fence runs about 400 feet and is the shared property line fence with six neighbors. Under california law, a property line fence is jointly maintained by both affected owners. In the past, when stretches of the fence were on the verge of collapse, the church would repair the fence with an agreement the neighbors would reimburse 50% of the repair cost, consistent with the law, but because the labor was always volunteer and the materials were typically less than $200 for each repair, we always ate the full cost, as a gesture of goodwill to the neighbors. One neighbor has been a bit of a dick by anonymously calling code compliance about visible recycling bins and such, but mostly we all get along with minimal contact.

Recently one of the houses changed hands and the new neighbors, as part of some landscaping work in their (tiny) back yard, installed a gate (?!?) in the fence. The church has been there since 1950 and there's never been a gate -- that part of the property is steeply sloped and overgrown -- kinda treacherous. The place they installed it is in the understory of a massive pine tree and was so heavily screened that we didn't even know about it until several days after it was installed. We'd planned on politely contacting our new neighbors to introduce ourselves and gently say wtaf but before that could even happen, a charity concert at the church was interrupted by 20 kids playing baseball (loudly) on our front lawn -- the overflow from a first communion party the family was holding at the same time (they are not parishioners). Fortunately our priest was at the concert and walked over to address the noise/trespass issue. The dad was very apologetic but the mom was defensive -- "it's our fence, too; we can put a gate in it" etc. And then she says (and this is the part i'm curious about) "we didn't realize it was private property."

okay, so, i'm thinking that's a flat-out lie -- that it's impossible to be a grown adult who can afford a $900k house and somehow think that churches are public facilities. Am i too deep into it to really know what's plausibly believed about the relationship between churches and the public? From contextual clues i think they're catholic but i'm not sure most catholics know how rigorously use of their church's property must be reviewed. I want to be fair rather than jump to the conclusion she's a chiseler.

Anyway, they broke up the baseball game at our request, and our priest e-mailed them days later inviting them to coffee -- no response yet.

All thoughts appreciated, including how you see this playing out. The priest looks to me on land use issues but i would advise him to be conciliatory if anyone thought the issue was at all close. I've got to reconcile the folks who want to bolt the gate shut on our side with others who think that will make things worse.

where is your god now?

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch

Dear Brain Trust:

The church we attend is in a densely developed residential neighborhood -- 5,000 sq. ft. lots and overbuilt so not much for backyards. All of the adjacent neighbors are single family residences. The back fence runs about 400 feet and is the shared property line fence with six neighbors. Under California law, a property line fence is jointly maintained by both affected owners. In the past, when stretches of the fence were on the verge of collapse, the church would repair the fence with an agreement the neighbors would reimburse 50% of the repair cost, consistent with the law, but because the labor was always volunteer and the materials were typically less than $200 for each repair, we always ate the full cost, as a gesture of goodwill to the neighbors. One neighbor has been a bit of a dick by anonymously calling Code Compliance about visible recycling bins and such, but mostly we all get along with minimal contact.

Recently one of the houses changed hands and the new neighbors, as part of some landscaping work in their (tiny) back yard, installed a gate (?!?) in the fence. The church has been there since 1950 and there's never been a gate -- that part of the property is steeply sloped and overgrown -- kinda treacherous. The place they installed it is in the understory of a massive pine tree and was so heavily screened that we didn't even know about it until several days after it was installed. We'd planned on politely contacting our new neighbors to introduce ourselves and gently say WTAF but before that could even happen, a charity concert at the church was interrupted by 20 kids playing baseball (loudly) on our front lawn -- the overflow from a First Communion party the family was holding at the same time (they are not parishioners). Fortunately our priest was at the concert and walked over to address the noise/trespass issue. The dad was very apologetic but the mom was defensive -- "It's our fence, too; we can put a gate in it" etc. And then she says (and this is the part I'm curious about) "We didn't realize it was private property."

Okay, so, I'm thinking that's a flat-out lie -- that it's impossible to be a grown adult who can afford a $900K house and somehow think that churches are public facilities. Am I too deep into it to really know what's plausibly believed about the relationship between churches and the public? From contextual clues I think they're Catholic but I'm not sure most Catholics know how rigorously use of their church's property must be reviewed. I want to be fair rather than jump to the conclusion she's a chiseler.

Anyway, they broke up the baseball game at our request, and our priest e-mailed them days later inviting them to coffee -- no response yet.

All thoughts appreciated, including how you see this playing out. The priest looks to me on land use issues but I would advise him to be conciliatory if anyone thought the issue was at all close. I've got to reconcile the folks who want to bolt the gate shut on our side with others who think that will make things worse.

"This Is God's House. Keep Off The Grass."

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch

Yeah, the things people do to neighbors, utterly without remorse, is rivaled only by what they will do to former spouses. I think we'll forego the blackberry option.

and only 1 suggested option still stands

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by Flinty_McFlint

where is your god now?

Probably shaking His head and thinking "I guess Atticus is just too smart to take that line about 'forgiving trespass' literally, huh?"

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch

Yeah, the things people do to neighbors, utterly without remorse, is rivaled only by what they will do to former spouses. I think we'll forego the blackberry option.

Which way does the gate swing? If into the church, a single post will do. If into their yard, another gate on your side, with a lock. Kind of like adjoining doors in hotels--both rooms have to open the doors for you to get through.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch

I was prepared to take that position before the baseball incident. The person I was when I was growing up would have played baseball* when no one was there, but a full parking lot and cello music coming from inside? Fuhgeddaboutit. And I would have yelled "Scatter!" upon seeing a man in black, for sure. But the mom seems pretty fucking entitled, and your position shows me she's not making it up, so thanks for the data point.

*I probably would have been the one saying "Guys, I don't think we should be doing this" but the other boys would have won out.

ETA: I probably failed to communicate in my first post that the church's property is probably 400' x 100', meaning the baseball game wasn't occurring on a back lot -- it was on the front lawn, 20 feet from the concert. So it's not like the two things could happen simultaneously with only a little bit of compromise.

You see, we played football on the church's front lawn regularly, but, then, that church was on 17 acres and the front lawn was really our second choice, when the actual baseball field was occupied.

There is no doubt that the woman is entitled, overbearing, and wrong* (the gate really is a bit much). And that it was during a concert, when a neighborly neighbor would be trying to keep the dogs quiet even though they are barking on their own damn property, makes it clear she's not a good neighbor, if the gate didn't already.

But, do you not turn the other cheek because there is nice music playing? When dealing with an entitled suburbanite, do you do good for their soul or yours by telling them what an ass they are being? **





* I liken this to the time God tormented Job by having all Ishmael's relatives hold camel races by his tent.
** I note there is an exception to turning the other cheek when internet trolls or terrorists are involved.