Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

The people who go on and on about crime on NextDoor are miserable, whether they live in Michigan or California. It's better to just ignore them.

all these old people that have no idea how to converse politely in a chat room (hi Sidd!!!) but they are my neighbors, and yelling at other neighbors. I'd rather read the "some people don't shovel their walks" stuff than Penthouse Forum.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

You are absolutely fucking wrong. Young black men get shot because white people have been taught all their lives (in many different ways) to fear them.

TM

True. That's why in the instant when the decision to pull the trigger is made, it's pulled.

But what brought that cop to that area, and what made him think he could treat that kid like a second class citizen, which set the stage for that horrible decision, is more complex than race.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

The people who go on and on about crime on NextDoor are miserable, whether they live in Michigan or California. It's better to just ignore them.

2. The person who's warning about burglars is the dullest fuck in the extended social scene.

I don't care that your purse was stolen from your SUV, you atrocious bore. (I kind of wish you were kidnapped. Because I know your husband, and he'd never pay the ransom.)

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

I just wanted to post the point. I didn't mean to imply I was adding to your point. I do believe that several posters here have racial issues (as almost all Americans do) while posting from a position of complete God head

It's posts like this that drove Atticus and his fist of God away.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

all these old people that have no idea how to converse politely in a chat room (hi Sidd!!!)

You made a stupid assumption, that anyone who posited himself as racially tolerant but really was not, must be a "lib." I called you on it.

Apparently that was hard for you to take.

You've now pulled out your deadly rhetorical wet noodles of death and tried to lash me with them three times. Get over it, baby-cakes.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

You made a stupid assumption, that anyone who posited himself as racially tolerant but really was not, must be a "lib."

no I didn't

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?

Agree. But I don't think it's necessarily fair to blame everyone else for the existence of that fear. Much of what TM said about the sources of that fear are probably true, but some of that fear is based in reality.

I'm not sure how to respond. Am I talking about blame or is that how you choose to view the issue? What difference does it make to me if you treat me like an asshole because you had a negative experience with a black person once? Why are we talking about me placing blame wrongly on you because of that? Seems like bullshit to me. You're still treating me like an asshole. You don't cut me slack for being a dick to you because a tall person punched me for no reason at some point in my life. Sure, there are some people who have negative experiences with black people and that may color their interactions with black people to a certain extent. But why is every black person held responsible as a group for the actions of someone they don't even know?

I believe (for example) that negative interactions one may have with a white teen jackass won't have the same impact on one's actions as a negative interaction with a black teen jackass because any negative stereotypes that are learned and cultivated (through all the items I listed in the post above) are reinforced with one or two small negative experiences.

But the issue isn't one of blame for me. It's one of acceptance. Will white people, generally, ever accept that they have these negative influences and, as a result, negative behavior? From what I see, it always turns into a discussion of trying to explain why certain behavior might not be attributed to latent or outright racism or how they shouldn't be blamed for stuff. If they would just accept that it exists, even if it's just an acceptance of unconscious bias, then maybe they will recognize their behavior and actually try to address it.

TM

[Tyrone Slothrop]

it is hard to believe that bill cosby is a serial rapist because the belief doesn't just indict cosby, it indicts us. It damns us for drawing intimate conclusions about people based on pudding-pop commercials and popular tv shows. It destroys our ability to lean on icons for our morality. And it forces us back into a world where seemingly good men do unspeakably evil things, and this is just the chaos of human history.

tnc

eta don't understand why this site sometimes strips the capital letters

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

May I just say, I know I have all kinds of race related prejudices and biases along the way that I struggle with and try to get rid of, but the longer this discussion goes on the less I like white people. Fuckin' white people.

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I'm not sure how to respond. Am I talking about blame or is that how you choose to view the issue? What difference does it make to me if you treat me like an asshole because you had a negative experience with a black person once? Why are we talking about me placing blame wrongly on you because of that? Seems like bullshit to me. You're still treating me like an asshole. You don't cut me slack for being a dick to you because a tall person punched me for no reason at some point in my life. Sure, there are some people who have negative experiences with black people and that may color their interactions with black people to a certain extent. But why is every black person held responsible as a group for the actions of someone they don't even know?

TM

I'm not sure I can answer all of these questions, and you never answered my questions about whether you would cross the street or not.

I'm not even sure where you got the idea that I'm claiming that a black person did something to me personally which caused me to have fear of all black people. That simply isn't true. What is true is that I witnessed groups of young black men (boys) terrorize other people (boys) at a significantly disproportionate rate than other groups of boys (whether that's a result of institutional racism or not is not really significant through the eyes of a 15-year old boy). I saw it...my brain processed it...and likely stored that information for future use. I was never terrorized myself, mainly because I was friends with some of the black guys (and frankly was protected via that friendship).

Every black person should obviously not be held responsible for what was witnessed as a 15 year old. I know that. We all know that. But that doesn't change the effect of what was witnessed on the subconscious brain. Subconsciously, the brain recalls what was observed and immediately characterizes a similar scene as potentially dangerous. I'm not saying it's right but it's what our brains do.

Now, I think you're right that we have to first recognize this subconscious bias, and then have to consciously work at reversing it. I am trying, and I think I've actually been fairly successful - you may not believe that, but I'm not sure I really give a shit. Whether you believe it or not is immaterial to me.

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

If they would just accept that it exists, even if it's just an acceptance of unconscious bias, then maybe they will recognize their behavior and actually try to address it.

TM

Totally agree.

My point was that you seemed to be asserting that the only cause of the bias is "taught" by (subconsciously and consciously racist) white people. And I'm merely arguing that some of it is also learned (rightly or wrongly) by personally observing the actions of groups of young black men.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?

I'm not sure I can answer all of these questions, and you never answered my questions about whether you would cross the street or not.

I'm not even sure where you got the idea that I'm claiming that a black person did something to me personally which caused me to have fear of all black people. That simply isn't true. What is true is that I witnessed groups of young black men (boys) terrorize other people (boys) at a significantly disproportionate rate than other groups of boys (whether that's a result of institutional racism or not is not really significant through the eyes of a 15-year old boy). I saw it...my brain processed it...and likely stored that information for future use. I was never terrorized myself, mainly because I was friends with some of the black guys (and frankly was protected via that friendship).

Every black person should obviously not be held responsible for what was witnessed as a 15 year old. I know that. We all know that. But that doesn't change the effect of what was witnessed on the subconscious brain. Subconsciously, the brain recalls what was observed and immediately characterizes a similar scene as potentially dangerous. I'm not saying it's right but it's what our brains do.

Now, I think you're right that we have to first recognize this subconscious bias, and then have to consciously work at reversing it. I am trying, and I think I've actually been fairly successful - you may not believe that, but I'm not sure I really give a shit. Whether you believe it or not is immaterial to me.



Totally agree.

My point was that you seemed to be asserting that the only cause of the bias is "taught" by (subconsciously and consciously racist) white people. And I'm merely arguing that some of it is also learned (rightly or wrongly) by personally observing the actions of groups of young black men.

I could be wrong, and I probably should know better than to try and speak for Thurgreed, but I think his point, in part, is this. I witnessed a group of black kids picking on a group of white kids. Am I justified in saying that I learned from this that black people are more aggressive, to be feared more? I witness a group of white people beating a black man. Am I to learn from this that white people are violent and prone to criminal behavior?

It's something more than just witnessing violence that informs my beliefs. Otherwise, I should now understand that both black and white people are violent and prone to criminal behavior and therefore cannot be trusted. The two are on equal footing.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

The people who go on and on about crime on NextDoor are miserable, whether they live in Michigan or California. It's better to just ignore them.

My neighborhood association has a facebook group that my husband quits on a regular basis because of the do gooders who constantly update the world about the "suspicious people" walking up and down our streets.

Covenant House has been in our neighborhood since before most of the residents moved here (we're going through a gentrification phase right now). There have always been homeless youth and will always be homeless youth milling around. There was once a serious suggestion on the facebook page to boycott the Wendy's because the Wendy's will let the kids hang out there for awhile after they ordered their burgers and fries.

Inevitably, some new development project starts up, and my husband rejoins the facebook page to bitch about city contractors and traffic problems.

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

May I just say, I know I have all kinds of race related prejudices and biases along the way that I struggle with and try to get rid of, but the longer this discussion goes on the less I like white people. Fuckin' white people.

We are the worst.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?

We are the worst.

I don't think we're the worst. We've just been at it the longest and loudest.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?

I'm not sure I can answer all of these questions, and you never answered my questions about whether you would cross the street or not.

I'm not even sure where you got the idea that I'm claiming that a black person did something to me personally which caused me to have fear of all black people. That simply isn't true. What is true is that I witnessed groups of young black men (boys) terrorize other people (boys) at a significantly disproportionate rate than other groups of boys (whether that's a result of institutional racism or not is not really significant through the eyes of a 15-year old boy). I saw it...my brain processed it...and likely stored that information for future use.

I am very, very certain I saw a lot more violence from some of the white asshats I grew up among than any black folks I knew, whom I mostly knew through Church and my family's politics. But that doesn't mean the stereotypes didn't come into play and I didn't pick them up from somewhere. They persist even where there is experience to the contrary.

White people don't attribute violence by whites to race. A bunch of rich preppies at UVa gang rape a girl, and no one thinks white people are thugs.