Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

Better question: Did Obama vet this with Hillary? This will be in an issue in Florida during the elections -- but I don't know which side will benefit from it.

I saw someone somewhere say Hillary floated this a couple months ago.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

So I recently sent a friend of mine this email after he asked me what I thought about this article: http://jezebel.com/i-dont-know-what-...ium=socialflow

As I tend to do, I wrote more than what he thought I would, I'm sure. I figured since I took so much damn time to write it out, I might as well post it here for reactions as well.

Seems to me like the author had two goals. The first being that she wanted white people to read this and she knew how to title it to achieve that goal. The second is to get white people thinking about what it actually means to volunteer anger or sadness in support of others. Are they doing it for a pat on the back? Should there be more behind any such expression than just what is on the surface of that emotion?

My wife and I were talking about this today while we were watching the 30 for 30 on the U (the first one). They described the backdrop of the story—Miami in the 70s and 80s which suffered from racial riots sparked over the beatings and killings of black people by police who were either not indicted or acquitted. Watching the clips of black people crying over injustice it struck us that they are exactly the same as what we’ve been watching recently. Exactly. The same sadness, the same rage, the same injustice. It just repeats itself. Again and again and again.

I think the Salon piece should be taken for what it actually is—an expression of pain and frustration over the fear of police brutality and the injustice that inevitably follows. The problem with most white people is that they will take the article as some sort of criticism. And they’ll internalize it. “She doesn’t think I do enough by saying it’s an injustice. What else can I do?” But that’s not really the point. The point is to really get white people to think about their position relative to black people in this country. It’s not enough to recognize that you carry privilege based on your skin color. It’s not enough to acknowledge injustice. Is it? People will be angry about it on facebook and move on before the end of the year. “What’s next?” Black people will continue to suffer at the hands of police and police will continue to get away with it.

The problem is, for things to change, white people have to give something up. No one wants to. Everyone recognizes that. I sure as hell understand it. But if you built this country on the backs of slaves, then set them free, then passed some laws for civil rights, then instituted (and subsequently destroyed) remedial programs like affirmative action to repair past injustice while isolating blacks in ghettos so you don’t have to see them, while glorifying gangster stereotypes by having white-controlled record labels push a certain type of rap consumed by whites in the suburbs who can’t get enough, feeding off of that fear in movie depictions and local news bullshit, and exaggerating and flat-out lying about crack (and crack babies), while ignoring the effects meth has had on white communities, and crafting drug laws using that fear you’ve created to win political points with the voters you’ve scared while taking cash for the commoditization of incarceration of black men, you need to understand that the position you enjoy relative to the black people (even though you have had no personal participation in the deprivation of rights and opportunity) cannot be viewed in a vacuum. That’s what white people do (even good ones). White people have to give that view up.

They tend to think that it’s not fair when they get lumped in with bad white people. But here is the legacy of all the shit I just mentioned: http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...hip-study.html Fucking 75% of white people in this country don’t even have one fucking black friend. 75%! This country has been systematically set up that way. White people simply do not know who black people are. Their knowledge of black people comes from Law & Order or 50 Cent. Their knowledge of cops comes from cops helping them whenever they need it. Their knowledge of why cops treat black people the way they do is a combination of all of that. Hell, cops treatment of black people comes from the same place.

So, in short, my thoughts on the article are: She seems annoyed by white people who want to be praised for being an outspoken ally without ever having to give anything up and the emotion that generates in the author. No one is going to say speaking out against injustice is bad or that the fact that there have been so many white participants demanding justice for black men killed for no reason isn’t a positive change from where we used to be. But with this article, as with all the others that have come out recently, it’s about more.

TM

I found it offensive. I don't think the way she says I think. I don't do the things she says I do. Far from looking for a pat on the back, I try to spread the effort around. So, I guess I have to conclude she judged me, without even knowing I exist, purely by the color of my skin.

But what other people think of me is none of my business.

You know, as I read that last sentence, I think I am beginning to get more of a feel for what you're saying. I can say that some black woman thinks I'm just a racist in denial is offensive, but I don't have to really worry about that. That street doesn't really run two ways.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

The problem is, for things to change, white people have to give something up. No one wants to. Everyone recognizes that. I sure as hell understand it. But if you built this country on the backs of slaves, then set them free, then passed some laws for civil rights, then instituted (and subsequently destroyed) remedial programs like affirmative action to repair past injustice while isolating blacks in ghettos so you don’t have to see them, while glorifying gangster stereotypes by having white-controlled record labels push a certain type of rap consumed by whites in the suburbs who can’t get enough, feeding off of that fear in movie depictions and local news bullshit, and exaggerating and flat-out lying about crack (and crack babies), while ignoring the effects meth has had on white communities, and crafting drug laws using that fear you’ve created to win political points with the voters you’ve scared while taking cash for the commoditization of incarceration of black men, you need to understand that the position you enjoy relative to the black people (even though you have had no personal participation in the deprivation of rights and opportunity) cannot be viewed in a vacuum. That’s what white people do (even good ones). White people have to give that view up.
TM

When you say "white people have to give something up" for things to change, are you referring only to the view that you refer to at the end? Or are you saying that the change you are calling really requires a sacrifice from white people?

If you mean the latter, I would challenge it. Maybe affirmative action policies mean white people give something up, but overall I would say that white people should realize that we have a lot to gain by curing this nation of its legacy of racism. I mean, if you offered me a choice between what we have now, and what they had in the south in the 1950s, or the 1850s, I'd choose what we have now in a heartbeat. Part of the problem is that people with the upper hand in an unfair society see a zero-sum game.

If you mean the former, well..... never mind.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by taxwonk

I found it offensive. I don't think the way she says I think. I don't do the things she says I do. Far from looking for a pat on the back, I try to spread the effort around. So, I guess I have to conclude she judged me, without even knowing I exist, purely by the color of my skin.

I think it's a poorly written article. I don't think she's talking about good white people. I think she's talking about "good" white people. And I think she had real problems defining the scope of who she's talking about. Is she referring to that superficial reaction we've all seen where people feel pressured to say something about what they may or may not believe to be injustice? Is she talking about people who act on some kind of internalized fear of black people and end up choking them out, but who say they never intended to hurt anyone? Is she talking about the white lady who couldn't even see her when she was standing on line and who later apologized for cutting ahead of her? Is it a combination or fusion of these people? Is she saying the attitude falls in the same realm?

If you were offended, I guess you concluded that she's talking about white people who are actually allies (which I consider you to be and what I assume you define yourself as). I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.

Originally Posted by taxwonk

You know, as I read that last sentence, I think I am beginning to get more of a feel for what you're saying. I can say that some black woman thinks I'm just a racist in denial is offensive, but I don't have to really worry about that. That street doesn't really run two ways.

Cool.

TM

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by taxwonk

I found it offensive. I don't think the way she says I think. I don't do the things she says I do. Far from looking for a pat on the back, I try to spread the effort around. So, I guess I have to conclude she judged me, without even knowing I exist, purely by the color of my skin.

But what other people think of me is none of my business.

You know, as I read that last sentence, I think I am beginning to get more of a feel for what you're saying. I can say that some black woman thinks I'm just a racist in denial is offensive, but I don't have to really worry about that. That street doesn't really run two ways.

You may not think the way she says you think, but I'll bet you know people who do.

I like her article. It's meant to make people think. It's meant to provoke.

There is shame in being white. There is shame in being a lot of things. And we white people can't distance ourselves from the indelible stain of race, from that original sin, no matter how hard we try. The whiteness seeps into us. We can't avoid it. It comes in what we eat, what we read, who we talk with, where we live.

And sometimes we just try not to deal with it. Which is worse, and a big contributing factor to the 75% of whites not having any black friends (even on the internet?!). Race can make white people uncomfortable, because it reminds them of their bad side. So white people hang with white people because it doesn't remind them of how white they are. Coping mechanism.

Best thing about what has been happening in the streets lately. Angry white people. Because we should be angry about race. We white people may not be afraid, but we should be angry.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

When you say "white people have to give something up" for things to change, are you referring only to the view that you refer to at the end? Or are you saying that the change you are calling really requires a sacrifice from white people?

If you mean the latter, I would challenge it. Maybe affirmative action policies mean white people give something up, but overall I would say that white people should realize that we have a lot to gain by curing this nation of its legacy of racism. I mean, if you offered me a choice between what we have now, and what they had in the south in the 1950s, or the 1850s, I'd choose what we have now in a heartbeat. Part of the problem is that people with the upper hand in an unfair society see a zero-sum game.

If you mean the former, well..... never mind.

The fact that we get something back doesn't mean we don't have to give something up. Might be a very good trade, but you have to acknowledge that there is a cost.

I've been involved in a number of recent conversations with relatives (white ones) about college admissions, and even among supposedly enlightened good white people, there is a feeling that if their kids were black they would have gotten into X which they didn't. And when I remind them of the number of kids in our extended family that are legacies, that have gotten favoritism because of their genes, they always view that as somehow "earned" favoritism while affirmative action based on race, instead of legacy status, isn't.

This is fucked up. And it's the tip of that particular iceberg of resentfulness and privilege.

Yeah, it's important that whites give up some stuff. And that privileged Americans of all colors give up stuff, too,* while we're at it. But the world we get in exchange would be way worth it.


*Not scotch.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

When you say "white people have to give something up" for things to change, are you referring only to the view that you refer to at the end? Or are you saying that the change you are calling really requires a sacrifice from white people?

If you mean the latter, I would challenge it. Maybe affirmative action policies mean white people give something up, but overall I would say that white people should realize that we have a lot to gain by curing this nation of its legacy of racism. I mean, if you offered me a choice between what we have now, and what they had in the south in the 1950s, or the 1850s, I'd choose what we have now in a heartbeat. Part of the problem is that people with the upper hand in an unfair society see a zero-sum game.

If you mean the former, well..... never mind.

I think what I'm saying is that zero-sum game viewpoint is really the issue. It's an inability to contextualize based on history and what lead us to where we are today (including the immense privilege enjoyed by white people). If one can give up that viewpoint, then it follows that one can give up relegating poor minorities to neighborhoods that are out of sight and out of mind, for just one example. Blow those neighborhoods up and actually establish affordable housing throughout cities and suburbs. Another example of giving up that viewpoint would be the ability to understand why the judicial system is so fucked up for black people. Bryan Stevenson is fantastic at providing the context of which I am speaking. He said:

'I was giving some lectures in Germany about the death penalty. It was fascinating because one of the scholars stood up after the presentation and said, "Well you know it's deeply troubling to hear what you're talking about." He said, "We don't have the death penalty in Germany. And of course, we can never have the death penalty in Germany." And the room got very quiet, and this woman said, "There's no way, with our history, we could ever engage in the systematic killing of human beings. It would be unconscionable for us to, in an intentional and deliberate way, set about executing people."

And I thought about that. What would it feel like to be living in a world where the nation state of Germany was executing people, especially if they were disproportionately Jewish? I couldn't bear it. It would be unconscionable.

And yet, in this country, in the states of the Old South, we execute people -- where you're 11 times more likely to get the death penalty if the victim is white than if the victim is black, 22 times more likely to get it if the defendant is black and the victim is white -- in the very states where there are buried in the ground the bodies of people who were lynched. And yet, there is this disconnect.'

This country is constantly in denial about racism or the effects of racism. Black people have to prove, with a smoking gun, that our treatment is the product of racism. We are consistently forced to give up the historical context we know to be true because it's possible that any one instance may not be the result of racism. But that's applied everywhere to everything, from the job Loquanda missed out on because of her name to the mortgage rate that's too high because the apartment is located in a black neighborhood (all other things being equal) to whether or not an officer shot a 12 year old kid because he has an internalized fear of black people.

Look, I'm not stupid. I understand that white people are never going to give up anything tangible. I realize that change will only come over generations and generations of painfully slow improvement. And obviously there has been progress. I think part of that article's point is that the good intentions we've seen from so many white people over Brown and Ferguson, etc. don't mean much when the outcome is exactly the same for black people as it has always been. And the author was expressing her frustration because of that.

TM

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Which is worse, and a big contributing factor to the 75% of whites not having any black friends (even on the internet?!).

I confess to not having very many black friends. One imaginary one on the internet. One of the guys from our beer club that I don't know that well. A number of facebook friends, primarily former colleagues or friends-of-friends.

The wife has encouraged me to try to become friends with a black female lawyer I've just started to work with at the office, and has suggested inviting her and her husband to things. Maybe I should do that. But I feel a little awkward because (1) I'm rather a bit older than her, (2) we've just started working on stuff, and (3) the black lady is pretty hot (and we all know I have awkward feelings about hot people).

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

The fact that we get something back doesn't mean we don't have to give something up. Might be a very good trade, but you have to acknowledge that there is a cost.

But there isn't really. The "cost" is maybe having a small chance of not getting the benefit of a long history of privilege. Can you really say you "deserved" what you're giving up?

Which is more or less what you say in your next paragraph.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Adder

The wife has encouraged me to try to become friends with a black female lawyer I've just started to work with at the office, and has suggested inviting her and her husband to things. Maybe I should do that. But I feel a little awkward because (1) I'm rather a bit older than her, (2) we've just started working on stuff, and (3) the black lady is pretty hot (and we all know I have awkward feelings about hot people).

I think you owe it to the board to do this and post all about it.

I happen to know for a fact that there are other black people in Minneapolis. Take your ass out of your comfort zone and try something you wouldn't normally try. Go someplace you wouldn't normally go. Good god, man. It's not difficult. Do I have to come all the way out there and introduce you to some black people personally?

TM

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally Posted by Adder

But there isn't really. The "cost" is maybe having a small chance of not getting the benefit of a long history of privilege. Can you really say you "deserved" what you're giving up?

Which is more or less what you say in your next paragraph.

I got into a pretty long discussion with my sister a few weeks ago about the concept of "dessert"* and how I don't really believe in it. It's somewhat linked to privilege and entitlement, but it's more than that. People have this idea that they deserve all sorts of things: Love, happiness, a place in school, a raise, etc. But mostly based on luck and circumstance and other, usually self-interested people's opinions and decisions with some effort thrown in. And its entirely relative.

This isn't to say I don't understand why people think that they deserve things. I just don't think that, all things being equal, most people would be where they are now if dessert were applied justly and equitably. I'm pretty Rawlsian when it comes down to it.

I'm white, but I'm also Hispanic. I don't really think of myself as white most of the time, though I certainly can slip into the role if I want to. I enjoy an immense amount of privilege, and I try to check it as often as I can.

*I do believe in after meal sweets.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

So I recently sent a friend of mine this email after he asked me what I thought about this article: http://jezebel.com/i-dont-know-what-...ium=socialflow

As I tend to do, I wrote more than what he thought I would, I'm sure. I figured since I took so much damn time to write it out, I might as well post it here for reactions as well.

Seems to me like the author had two goals. The first being that she wanted white people to read this and she knew how to title it to achieve that goal. The second is to get white people thinking about what it actually means to volunteer anger or sadness in support of others. Are they doing it for a pat on the back? Should there be more behind any such expression than just what is on the surface of that emotion?

My wife and I were talking about this today while we were watching the 30 for 30 on the U (the first one). They described the backdrop of the story—Miami in the 70s and 80s which suffered from racial riots sparked over the beatings and killings of black people by police who were either not indicted or acquitted. Watching the clips of black people crying over injustice it struck us that they are exactly the same as what we’ve been watching recently. Exactly. The same sadness, the same rage, the same injustice. It just repeats itself. Again and again and again.

I think the Salon piece should be taken for what it actually is—an expression of pain and frustration over the fear of police brutality and the injustice that inevitably follows. The problem with most white people is that they will take the article as some sort of criticism. And they’ll internalize it. “She doesn’t think I do enough by saying it’s an injustice. What else can I do?” But that’s not really the point. The point is to really get white people to think about their position relative to black people in this country. It’s not enough to recognize that you carry privilege based on your skin color. It’s not enough to acknowledge injustice. Is it? People will be angry about it on facebook and move on before the end of the year. “What’s next?” Black people will continue to suffer at the hands of police and police will continue to get away with it.

The problem is, for things to change, white people have to give something up. No one wants to. Everyone recognizes that. I sure as hell understand it. But if you built this country on the backs of slaves, then set them free, then passed some laws for civil rights, then instituted (and subsequently destroyed) remedial programs like affirmative action to repair past injustice while isolating blacks in ghettos so you don’t have to see them, while glorifying gangster stereotypes by having white-controlled record labels push a certain type of rap consumed by whites in the suburbs who can’t get enough, feeding off of that fear in movie depictions and local news bullshit, and exaggerating and flat-out lying about crack (and crack babies), while ignoring the effects meth has had on white communities, and crafting drug laws using that fear you’ve created to win political points with the voters you’ve scared while taking cash for the commoditization of incarceration of black men, you need to understand that the position you enjoy relative to the black people (even though you have had no personal participation in the deprivation of rights and opportunity) cannot be viewed in a vacuum. That’s what white people do (even good ones). White people have to give that view up.

They tend to think that it’s not fair when they get lumped in with bad white people. But here is the legacy of all the shit I just mentioned: http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...hip-study.html Fucking 75% of white people in this country don’t even have one fucking black friend. 75%! This country has been systematically set up that way. White people simply do not know who black people are. Their knowledge of black people comes from Law & Order or 50 Cent. Their knowledge of cops comes from cops helping them whenever they need it. Their knowledge of why cops treat black people the way they do is a combination of all of that. Hell, cops treatment of black people comes from the same place.

So, in short, my thoughts on the article are: She seems annoyed by white people who want to be praised for being an outspoken ally without ever having to give anything up and the emotion that generates in the author. No one is going to say speaking out against injustice is bad or that the fact that there have been so many white participants demanding justice for black men killed for no reason isn’t a positive change from where we used to be. But with this article, as with all the others that have come out recently, it’s about more.

TM

I am only back because T had nothing to do with my leaving, and I respect him, and grow from honest conversation on this issue. I am still gone other than this limited exception.

I guess I wonder what you mean by "whites giving stuff up?" [edit- Re-reading I think you mean more than just accepting we are advantaged, but then behaving based upon the knowledge?]

My old biggest client has a black GC. He flat out looks for black candidates to fill any spots he has.

I've a black friend who is into posting race themed topics on FB. One led to one white person being called out for not recognizing the advantages she had. This led to another white guy posting that he had not sought out the really good powerful jobs that all white people are guaranteed and taking some lesser jobs so as not to profit from his advantages. (the sarcasm is not mine, but unintentionally in his post) I thought man, you should have taken the powerful job and behaved like the black GC if you really wanted to correct shit.

I think I have used what power i have, although the area I am in is so rarified I don't have as much opportunity. GC had to fill a patent counsel position; he looked for a year before giving up on a black candidate*. Still I do use what I can where i can. Although in retrospect over the years there were people i should have helped that I didn't.

The thing that troubles me is regardless of all the people who might pull up kids, lots can't be pulled up. Detroit schools have some silly big drop out rate. How do you fix a 30/40 % rate of kids w/o HS degrees? My kids are scrambling with college degrees. No HS diploma is not a good base for em's future. I do not know how to correct this, and some of those kids will certainly get to crime, and ..... I don't know.


*given the poison on this board that will focus on this point- I could offer theories for why there are few blacks with engineering degrees in law school, but it would distract.

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

I am only back because T had nothing to do with my leaving, and I respect him, and grow from honest conversation on this issue. I am still gone other than this limited exception.

I guess I wonder what you mean by "whites giving stuff up?" [edit- Re-reading I think you mean more than just accepting we are advantaged, but then behaving based upon the knowledge?]

My old biggest client has a black GC. He flat out looks for black candidates to fill any spots he has.

I've a black friend who is into posting race themed topics on FB. One led to one white person being called out for not recognizing the advantages she had. This led to another white guy posting that he had not sought out the really good powerful jobs that all white people are guaranteed and taking some lesser jobs so as not to profit from his advantages. (the sarcasm is not mine, but unintentionally in his post) I thought man, you should have taken the powerful job and behaved like the black GC if you really wanted to correct shit.

I think I have used what power i have, although the area I am in is so rarified I don't have as much opportunity. GC had to fill a patent counsel position; he looked for a year before giving up on a black candidate*. Still I do use what I can where i can. Although in retrospect over the years there were people i should have helped that I didn't.

The thing that troubles me is regardless of all the people who might pull up kids, lots can't be pulled up. Detroit schools have some silly big drop out rate. How do you fix a 30/40 % rate of kids w/o HS degrees? My kids are scrambling with college degrees. No HS diploma is not a good base for em's future. I do not know how to correct this, and some of those kids will certainly get to crime, and ..... I don't know.


*given the poison on this board that will focus on this point- I could offer theories for why there are few blacks with engineering degrees in law school, but it would distract.

Welcome back (for the sole purpose of responding to Thurgreed's post and growing from your honest interactions with him, while recognizing that for all other purposes you are not really "back")!

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

I've been involved in a number of recent conversations with relatives (white ones) about college admissions, and even among supposedly enlightened good white people, there is a feeling that if their kids were black they would have gotten into X which they didn't. And when I remind them of the number of kids in our extended family that are legacies, that have gotten favoritism because of their genes, they always view that as somehow "earned" favoritism while affirmative action based on race, instead of legacy status, isn't.

This is the one area where I think white people can actually point to something tangible and say "I'm giving that up." I remember watching my brother go through these feelings in a very severe way. As a decent but not great student, and a good but not superstar athlete, he was in a position to compare himself to black classmates who were roughly equivalent, or lower, in academics and sports and got into much better schools.

It's easy to justify that by looking at the broader context -- we don't all start from the same starting line, and white privilege is real. And even if he went to a lower-tier school, he would come out with those same privileges and advantages.

On the other hand, we're the first generation of Americans, born to parents who lived through WWII in Italy and came to the US with essentially nothing but the educations they received in Italy. We were certainly not "legacies" (except to the extent that our two older siblings both went to the same college -- one from which the brother I'm talking about was rejected). By the time we were in high school, our family was perfectly comfortable but not rich. The kid he was mostly comparing himself to was from a wealthy black family. That context does make the broader context harder to see.

I support affirmative action (though I would like to see it more targeted on economics than solely race), and yet I fully understand the difficulty that the above situation caused, particularly for a teenager. I don't like responses to that difficulty that boil down to "stop whining."

But, okay. Leave that context aside. Do I give anything -- anything at all - up if police are held accountable for killing unarmed black men? No, and the same is true of many other of the legacies of US race history.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I think you owe it to the board to do this and post all about it.

I happen to know for a fact that there are other black people in Minneapolis. Take your ass out of your comfort zone and try something you wouldn't normally try. Go someplace you wouldn't normally go. Good god, man. It's not difficult. Do I have to come all the way out there and introduce you to some black people personally?

TM

And now, I'm picturing Adder walking into a bar somewhere and saying "Hi! I'm here to meet black people!"