Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I don't know if I agree with your example. I'll admit that I've never watched Platoon from start to finish, but it's because of the rape scene. I was like 16 or 17 when I saw that and I had to turn it off. Maybe the tone changes, but I didn't get any sense of heroism from what I saw.

TM

Yeah, I thought Platoon was a weird example there, because it had definite American soldier bad guys.

But it's also pretty literal in its Sgt. Elias-as-Jesus imagery, albeit right a the end:


Weird, I don't specifically recall the rape scene though.

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan

I was thinking about this the other day when the discussion first came up. My brother has more kills than my husband does. Like a gagillion Texans, my brother grew up hunting. Mainly ducks, geese and dove, but he is an excellent shot and had no problem whatsoever shooting and killing birds in the sky or snakes in the water or sick looking rodents that could be rabid. My husband grew up in urban and suburban Ohio, and he didn't start shooting until he joined the Marines during the first Gulf War. Aside from spiders and the mice he fed to his snakes, I don't think he's ever killed anything on purpose. But he was good at shooting. Though he didn't go to sniper school, had his unit gone anywhere, he would have been the guy they sent high to cover everyone if there were no other snipers around. He never had to.

I'm pretty sure that my husband wouldn't have had a problem at the time shooting and killing people to protect his unit. Not god, not country, not to defend democracy or something abstract, but the guys he went in with. He was very well trained / indoctrinated to work as a team with the people around him, and he was good at his job, which included being an excellent shot. Had he stayed in longer, I have no doubt that eventually he would have shot and killed someone and maybe even a lot of someones. And I think he would be relatively ok with it.

I think my brother would have had a major problem with it, though I guess if he had to, he could/would. He'd be a lot more messed up about it later, though, at least outwardly.

At any rate, I think my husband was a 19 year old who had no interest whatsoever in college and saw the Marines as something he could do instead. He'll tell you now that he was a horrible Marine, though I've never gotten the impression that he regrets it, and he's still immensely proud of getting through Parris Island and then being Force Recon. For someone who hates being told what to do or how to dress and is insanely stubborn, I sometimes can't believe he did it. I suspect a lot of adolescent anger, resentment, and desire to prove people wrong did a lot to drive him. I think also the adrenaline rush had a lot to do with it. He loved jumping out of planes and repelling and using zip lines and stuff like that. Plus he loved playing with the toys. I can't even count the number of times we've watched an action adventure movie where he's done whatever the people on screen are doing.

Now, he absolutely HATES the fetishization of the military, and he squirms whenever he hears the words "thank you for your service." I mentioned recently how I thought it'd be funny if he and my brother went to a gun range to compare efficiency, and he said it sounded like something that would support the NRA so he had no interest. But I still think he would not hesitate to kill someone if we were in legitimate danger.

Thank him for his service.

A lot of data supports the idea that no one kills for his country or his flag. They kill to protect themselves and the members of their unit. Which is why 100% of infantry warfare consists of sending people to places on the battlefield where they have to fire to defend others, because not engaging is always an option so you have to take that option away. And in days past, when we had a non-volunteer force, even then a lot of guys just fired into the air, ineffectively but just enough to avoid being shot for cowardice.

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan

I mentioned recently how I thought it'd be funny if he and my brother went to a gun range to compare efficiency, and he said it sounded like something that would support the NRA so he had no interest. But I still think he would not hesitate to kill someone if we were in legitimate danger.

As a person who’s gone a lifetime of assiduously avoiding supporting the NRA, my present understanding is that one can pay a daily or hourly fee at a public or private range without resulting in a net benefit to Wayne LaPierre, BUT many ranges and sportsman’s rod and gun clubs require NRA membership in order to become a member — something about NRA death and dismemberment insurance, no doubt. So he can’t become a member. But paying $10, particularly at a publicly owned range, isn’t going to empower the NRA. I welcome corrections from anyone who sees it differently.

Unless he means he doesn’t want to support the NRA by enriching, even slightly, a person or business who is then more capable of donating. Because if that’s the standard, you’re pretty much going to have to displace yourself from Texas again, or “go freegan.”

What’s a person with a big fucking family ranch doing at a gun range, anyway? I thought people in Texas just fire their guns out the bathroom window to salute the dawn.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch

As a person who’s gone a lifetime of assiduously avoiding supporting the NRA, my present understanding is that one can pay a daily or hourly fee at a public or private range without resulting in a net benefit to Wayne LaPierre, BUT many ranges and sportsman’s rod and gun clubs require NRA membership in order to become a member — something about NRA death and dismemberment insurance, no doubt. So he can’t become a member. But paying $10, particularly at a publicly owned range, isn’t going to empower the NRA. I welcome corrections from anyone who sees it differently.

Unless he means he doesn’t want to support the NRA by enriching, even slightly, a person or business who is then more capable of donating. Because if that’s the standard, you’re pretty much going to have to displace yourself from Texas again, or “go freegan.”

What’s a person with a big fucking family ranch doing at a gun range, anyway? I thought people in Texas just fire their guns out the bathroom window to salute the dawn.

I don't know anything about gun ranges for two reasons: a) big fucking family ranch and b) public safety. I'm the worst shot in history (though I suspect that my youngest sister is worse, but there's no data to support it because she refuses to touch a weapon), so I don't go near guns to ensure that no one accidentally loses a toe or worse. I'm on the close hand to hand combat with blunt and/or sharp instrument team when the zombie Apocalypse comes.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Adder

Yeah, I thought Platoon was a weird example there, because it had definite American soldier bad guys.

But it's also pretty literal in its Sgt. Elias-as-Jesus imagery, albeit right a the end:


Weird, I don't specifically recall the rape scene though.

Dude, spoiler. Damn.

TM

[Not Bob]

Originally Posted by Adder

Yeah, I thought Platoon was a weird example there, because it had definite American soldier bad guys.

But it's also pretty literal in its Sgt. Elias-as-Jesus imagery, albeit right a the end:


Weird, I don't specifically recall the rape scene though.

It was in the village where they find VC supplies - it happens after Tom Beringer kills the mayor's wife. Not as big a plot point as the rape in "Casualties of War," but it was part of why Charlie Sheen liked Wilem Dafoe better than Berenger.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Not Bob

It was in the village where they find VC supplies - it happens after Tom Beringer kills the mayor's wife. Not as big a plot point as the rape in "Casualties of War," but it was part of why Charlie Sheen liked Wilem Dafoe better than Berenger.

Maybe that's the one I was thinking of. Do they take the girl into a hut with Michael J. Fox doing his Michael J. Fox thing outside?

I don't think I watched Platoon either.

TM

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Maybe that's the one I was thinking of. Do they take the girl into a hut with Michael J. Fox doing his Michael J. Fox thing outside?

I don't think I watched Platoon either.

In looking this up, I found that both Thuy Thu Lee (“Casualties of War”) and Li Mai Thao (“Platoon”) have exactly one screen credit each — that of “Rape Victim” in their respective movies.

So.

Yeah.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan

I was thinking about this the other day when the discussion first came up. My brother has more kills than my husband does. Like a gagillion Texans, my brother grew up hunting. Mainly ducks, geese and dove, but he is an excellent shot and had no problem whatsoever shooting and killing birds in the sky or snakes in the water or sick looking rodents that could be rabid. My husband grew up in urban and suburban Ohio, and he didn't start shooting until he joined the Marines during the first Gulf War. Aside from spiders and the mice he fed to his snakes, I don't think he's ever killed anything on purpose. But he was good at shooting. Though he didn't go to sniper school, had his unit gone anywhere, he would have been the guy they sent high to cover everyone if there were no other snipers around. He never had to.

I'm pretty sure that my husband wouldn't have had a problem at the time shooting and killing people to protect his unit. Not god, not country, not to defend democracy or something abstract, but the guys he went in with. He was very well trained / indoctrinated to work as a team with the people around him, and he was good at his job, which included being an excellent shot. Had he stayed in longer, I have no doubt that eventually he would have shot and killed someone and maybe even a lot of someones. And I think he would be relatively ok with it.

I think my brother would have had a major problem with it, though I guess if he had to, he could/would. He'd be a lot more messed up about it later, though, at least outwardly.

At any rate, I think my husband was a 19 year old who had no interest whatsoever in college and saw the Marines as something he could do instead. He'll tell you now that he was a horrible Marine, though I've never gotten the impression that he regrets it, and he's still immensely proud of getting through Parris Island and then being Force Recon. For someone who hates being told what to do or how to dress and is insanely stubborn, I sometimes can't believe he did it. I suspect a lot of adolescent anger, resentment, and desire to prove people wrong did a lot to drive him. I think also the adrenaline rush had a lot to do with it. He loved jumping out of planes and repelling and using zip lines and stuff like that. Plus he loved playing with the toys. I can't even count the number of times we've watched an action adventure movie where he's done whatever the people on screen are doing.

Now, he absolutely HATES the fetishization of the military, and he squirms whenever he hears the words "thank you for your service." I mentioned recently how I thought it'd be funny if he and my brother went to a gun range to compare efficiency, and he said it sounded like something that would support the NRA so he had no interest. But I still think he would not hesitate to kill someone if we were in legitimate danger.

HUGE 2 on that "Thank you for your service" bullshit. It's hard to verbalize just why it is so annoying, but I cringe too.

We've seen all kinds of reasons in our family for joining the military. I think my foster-nephew did it to emulate his foster father. I've had a couple relatives do ROTC, focusing more on the college payments than the after college commitments - at least one of them very explicitly thinking, pre 9/11, that he had little or no chance of deployment and it was a good gig for a couple years. We've had people in the military as doctors, priests, and social workers - all unlikely to get shot at or shoot anyone. At least one in-law was doing it for immigration and naturalization reasons. Two family members have done special forces training - my father, who dropped out of it, and a brother-in-law who started in the SEAL program but was transferred out of it into a leadership track and ended up commanding a nuclear sub (SEALs never end up running things, they're too crazy). Both signed up for it more for the prestige, they were looking for the most elite military role and the fastest advancing they could.

There's a sizable part of the country where the military is just an alternate stepping stone to success, like college is or training for a union trade once was. I don't think every enlistee really thinks that hard about the killing part.

[Not Bob]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Maybe that's the one I was thinking of. Do they take the girl into a hut with Michael J. Fox doing his Michael J. Fox thing outside?

I don't think I watched Platoon either.

TM

That's the one. Sean Penn is the Evil Sergeant.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

HUGE 2 on that "Thank you for your service" bullshit. It's hard to verbalize just why it is so annoying, but I cringe too.

We've seen all kinds of reasons in our family for joining the military. I think my foster-nephew did it to emulate his foster father. I've had a couple relatives do ROTC, focusing more on the college payments than the after college commitments - at least one of them very explicitly thinking, pre 9/11, that he had little or no chance of deployment and it was a good gig for a couple years. We've had people in the military as doctors, priests, and social workers - all unlikely to get shot at or shoot anyone. At least one in-law was doing it for immigration and naturalization reasons. Two family members have done special forces training - my father, who dropped out of it, and a brother-in-law who started in the SEAL program but was transferred out of it into a leadership track and ended up commanding a nuclear sub (SEALs never end up running things, they're too crazy). Both signed up for it more for the prestige, they were looking for the most elite military role and the fastest advancing they could.

There's a sizable part of the country where the military is just an alternate stepping stone to success, like college is or training for a union trade once was. I don't think every enlistee really thinks that hard about the killing part.

SEALs I know are probably outliers. I met two when we were at Oxford. One of them is now a lawyer specializing in environmental projects and the other's title on linkedin says "Special Assistant to the President, National Security Council". A third SEAL is a Burning Man buddy, and everyone knows not to wake him up suddenly.

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan

SEALs I know are probably outliers. I met two when we were at Oxford. One of them is now a lawyer specializing in environmental projects and the other's title on linkedin says "Special Assistant to the President, National Security Council". A third SEAL is a Burning Man buddy, and everyone knows not to wake him up suddenly.

What if one woke him up by “thanking him for his service,” IYKWIMAITYD?

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Not Bob

It was in the village where they find VC supplies - it happens after Tom Beringer kills the mayor's wife. Not as big a plot point as the rape in "Casualties of War," but it was part of why Charlie Sheen liked Wilem Dafoe better than Berenger.

Oh, yeah right.

Funny story (not really), in high school a buddy had rented the movie you mentioned and the tape was sitting on top of the TV. His mother came in and looked at the box and said, "what's Casual Ties of War."

He's dead now.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch

As a person who’s gone a lifetime of assiduously avoiding supporting the NRA, my present understanding is that one can pay a daily or hourly fee at a public or private range without resulting in a net benefit to Wayne LaPierre, BUT many ranges and sportsman’s rod and gun clubs require NRA membership in order to become a member — something about NRA death and dismemberment insurance, no doubt. So he can’t become a member. But paying $10, particularly at a publicly owned range, isn’t going to empower the NRA. I welcome corrections from anyone who sees it differently.

Unless he means he doesn’t want to support the NRA by enriching, even slightly, a person or business who is then more capable of donating. Because if that’s the standard, you’re pretty much going to have to displace yourself from Texas again, or “go freegan.”

What’s a person with a big fucking family ranch doing at a gun range, anyway? I thought people in Texas just fire their guns out the bathroom window to salute the dawn.

No, they most often shoot them at the doghouse, which is a scale replica of the real house, while reclining in the hot tub.

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally Posted by Adder

Oh, yeah right.

Funny story (not really), in high school a buddy had rented the movie you mentioned and the tape was sitting on top of the TV. His mother came in and looked at the box and said, "what's Casual Ties of War."

He's dead now.

I feel like this story could use an editor.