Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

I am in the category of people who genuinely like Hillary as well. And it is not just that she is smart and well-informed. She is a battle-hardened, seen-it-all, put up with no bullshit auntie, who has got a good heart and claws of steel.

I find the number of us who really like her small among white men but much larger in other demographics. It is very annoying how often white men just presume Hillary put-downs are ok and everyone should just go along.

I agree with all of the positive things said about her here (other than Sebby's "no one hates her" line, which is ridiculous). The negative that I agree with is NotBob's "positioning" comment. Her vote on the Iraq war, in particular, was cowardly IMO. I do not believe she honestly thought it was a good idea, but she was afraid to stand on that.

I think many people view that as indicative of an overall willingness to change her position to what she views as popular or advantageous. I do not agree with that. She was not unique, or even unusual, among Dems who were cowed by the post-9/11 war fervor, and that was exactly what W, Rove, Cheney, FOX, and many many other were trying to accomplish with the "if you oppose war you support Saddam, and terrorists, and al Qaeda, and granny-rape" hysteria. (Ah, memories.... Bilmore and his "murder-marchers" polemics...)

People's willingness to see that instance as a broad indicator is, of course, driven to a great extent by their overall feelings towards her, which in many cases are a seething hatred driven by her sex and her refusal to play the gender role that was expected of women of her age. But, at least among those who lack the seething hatred, I see the legitimacy of the concerns, to an extent.

If I had the choice, I would rather vote for someone who had the courage and leadership to stand against the Iraq War, but my first priority is someone highly competent, effective, and not engaging in pipe dreams.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

I agree with all of the positive things said about her here (other than Sebby's "no one hates her" line, which is ridiculous). The negative that I agree with is NotBob's "positioning" comment. Her vote on the Iraq war, in particular, was cowardly IMO. I do not believe she honestly thought it was a good idea, but she was afraid to stand on that.

I think many people view that as indicative of an overall willingness to change her position to what she views as popular or advantageous. I do not agree with that. She was not unique, or even unusual, among Dems who were cowed by the post-9/11 war fervor, and that was exactly what W, Rove, Cheney, FOX, and many many other were trying to accomplish with the "if you oppose war you support Saddam, and terrorists, and al Qaeda, and granny-rape" hysteria. (Ah, memories.... Bilmore and his "murder-marchers" polemics...)

People's willingness to see that instance as a broad indicator is, of course, driven to a great extent by their overall feelings towards her, which in many cases are a seething hatred driven by her sex and her refusal to play the gender role that was expected of women of her age. But, at least among those who lack the seething hatred, I see the legitimacy of the concerns, to an extent.

If I had the choice, I would rather vote for someone who had the courage and leadership to stand against the Iraq War, but my first priority is someone highly competent, effective, and not engaging in pipe dreams.

Part of what you get with Hillary is the education she's gotten in public life. I think that vote was the beginning of her education on the middle east, and really since that first bit of grammar school learning she's been through high school, college and grad school on the subject.

So I'm more interested in talking about her role as secretary of state than a single vote a decade and a half ago in the Senate. And as a secretary of state, I think she did very well.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Part of what you get with Hillary is the education she's gotten in public life. I think that vote was the beginning of her education on the middle east, and really since that first bit of grammar school learning she's been through high school, college and grad school on the subject.

So I'm more interested in talking about her role as secretary of state than a single vote a decade and a half ago in the Senate. And as a secretary of state, I think she did very well.

I agree.

That vote was far more important to me back in the 2008 primaries, and was a key part of why I supported Obama.

A long time has passed, and as you say she's gotten a lot of education.

And, really -- the choice between someone who voted for the Iraq war and acknowledges that was a mistake, and someone who wants to carpet-bomb cities where ISIS is active or resume torturing suspects or engaged in targeted killing of family members or.... well, you get the point.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

I agree.

That vote was far more important to me back in the 2008 primaries, and was a key part of why I supported Obama.

A long time has passed, and as you say she's gotten a lot of education.

And, really -- the choice between someone who voted for the Iraq war and acknowledges that was a mistake, and someone who wants to carpet-bomb cities where ISIS is active or resume torturing suspects or engaged in targeted killing of family members or.... well, you get the point.

She's going to be nearly neocon hawkish. Bill Kristol is already singing her praises. (Seriously.) The neocons know their fellow travelers. They want war, and she's been signaling she'll bring it for a long time.

[SEC_Chick]

This will surprise exactly no one, but I detest Hillary. I am pretty sure it is not because she is a woman.

Given the set of HRC, Obama, Pelosi, and Reid, I am unable to rank them in order of whom I dislike most. Nor am I able to even select one that I dislike even the tiniest bit less than the others. I dislike them all exactly equally, although for different reasons.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by SEC_Chick

This will surprise exactly no one, but I detest Hillary. I am pretty sure it is not because she is a woman.

Given the set of HRC, Obama, Pelosi, and Reid, I am unable to rank them in order of whom I dislike most. Nor am I able to even select one that I dislike even the tiniest bit less than the others. I dislike them all exactly equally, although for different reasons.

I have no idea how one can detest Obama.

Disagree with him, sure. But how can you not smile back when he smiles?

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

I have no idea how one can detest Obama.

Disagree with him, sure. But how can you not smile back when he smiles?

Because save a few sentencing guideline changes, he's been all talk on criminal justice reform. That's trading lives for votes.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Because save a few sentencing guideline changes, he's been all talk on criminal justice reform. That's trading lives for votes.

I guess you're part of the Obama is an omnipotent King who simply chooses not to enact, interpret and enforce the laws we want-crowd too?

This shit is so tired.

TM

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I guess you're part of the Obama is an omnipotent King who simply chooses not to enact, interpret and enforce the laws we want-crowd too?

This shit is so tired.

TM

I can only imagine the levels of true Republican horseshit that would flow if a black Democratic president made a hard push for criminal justice reform.

And I'm talking about a hypothetical black Democratic president, not the current one who is a foreign-born Muslim terrorist who hates America and has deliberately harmed it.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I guess you're part of the Obama is an omnipotent King who simply chooses not to enact, interpret and enforce the laws we want-crowd too?

This shit is so tired.

TM

No. I'm part of the crowd who heard Obama and Holder talk a good bit about reforming our criminal justice system, but all I got was a Vice special where Obama talked to some prisoners.

Obama's been a decent President, and a lot of the Left's attacks on him for not having done enough on health care, or jailing bankers, or "bringing urrr jobs back" are the usual gripes of those who don't understand how difficult, or impossible, it is to achieve the goals the Left desires.

But in criminal justice reform, there was bipartisan support. Booker and Paul got together to push it forward. The Kochs (for cynical reasons, no doubt) put money behind it. The rare moment where the public has some sympathy for people railroaded by a corrupt, deeply fucked up system appeared, and Obama missed the opportunity to push for reform.

Sure, even for Democrats, it's hard to buck the "tough on crime" idiot voting bloc. But Obama could have done more. And Hillary sure as fuck won't. (She'll suck up to the private prison lobby if it even slightly enhances her war chest for 2020.) The moment's gone, and the criticism Obama blew the best chance for serious reform is quite valid.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

I do not believe she honestly thought it was a good idea, but she was afraid to stand on that.

I agree with Not Bob's positioning point, but I don't think it's accurate to say she was afraid. She made a strategic decision not to take a stand. That's a little different.

And it's a legitimate beef to have with her.

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by Adder

And it's a legitimate beef to have with her.

Wait a second. How did you become the Arbiter of Beef Legitimacy? Well, if that's how it is, then tell me this: Kanye v. Wiz Khalifa -- legit?

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by Adder

I agree with Not Bob's positioning point, but I don't think it's accurate to say she was afraid. She made a strategic decision not to take a stand. That's a little different.

And it's a legitimate beef to have with her.

Miley v. Nicki?

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

Miley v. Nicki?

I'm entirely unqualified to adjudicate pop music beefs.

[Not Bob]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

Miley v. Nicki?

I'll leave to Adder the issue of whether or not this is a legitimate beef, but I note that they both like to do cool things with their hair.

ETA: Oops, Adder punted. However, I did see that Ollie is here- perhaps he can answer your question.