My God, you are an idiot.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

worked for Robert Byrd all those years

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

Obama gave up on single payer to get the Dems he needed. Most of the are no longer in congress, but they were then and he needed their votes.

Woh. Hank said something that's right.

Except he also hoped to get Grassley, Snowe and Collins.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

worked for Robert Byrd all those years

There is that Shatner interview show, "Shatner's Raw Nerve," started out good, but he has ran out of good guests. Anyhoo, he interviewed Gene Simmons. He was born in Israel in about 48, of eastern european parents. His dad dumped the family and the mom arranged for Gene and her to immigrate here. At the US counsel he saw her asked to swear allegiance to the US- the guy said she should raise her right hand: all she knew was the Nazi salute, so she did that. The guy said, "you never have to see that again." Gene was overcome.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

worked for Robert Byrd all those years

My name is Hank. My own shit is so tired that I have to pick up and recycle shit that Penske left behind a few years ago.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

My name is Hank. My own shit is so tired that I have to pick up and recycle shit that Penske left behind a few years ago.

Ty posts a picture of some guy inadvertently doing a Nazi salute. Why? To make the funny joke the guy is a Nazi. See? Funny!

Except you guys had an actual racist/nazi in charge of your senate for decades.

That means you're limited and can't call a R a Nazi the joke isn't available to you

Or didn't the Dems let a former Klan kleagle run the senate?

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

A really significant part of the conservative base is more invested in opposing Obama than it is in any particularly policy outcome. If Obama moves to the center (i.e., right) to meet them, they will move away from him because that's what matters more to them. You see this again and again. An example is healthcare, where Obama eschewed long-standing Democratic priorities like single-payer and the public option in favor of a moderate Republican proposal, private payer with mandates, only to see Republicans discover that what they had previously supported is unconstitutional and socialistic. You see it with the stimulus, where Obama eschewed more effective vehicles in favor of tax cuts, but did not pick up a single GOP vote in doing so. You cannot lead the country if a single part of it is psychologically dedicated to picking a fight with you.

Under the circumstances that you describe, accurately, what is a president to do?

-- Give in to the people who are dedicated to picking a fight with him, so that they never agree to anything except your complete surrender (and even that they don't always accept)?

-- appeal to the public, which though irrational in some ways, contains a large number of people who are rational, who want compromise and progress, and who hate gridlock?

The TP is loud and obstinate. But they are a small %% of the country. Much of the country is inclined to agree with what Obama actually wanted on the debt and deficit (if, at least for the left, somewhat reluctantly), but he failed to inspire them.


You seem to be saying that he had no choice but failure, because of those mean and nasty Rs. I agree that the Rs have been ridiculous in many ways. But didn't vote for them, I voted for Obama, and I do not agree that he has to surrender to them or opt for paralysis.


Not to channel Richard Nixon, but I believe that there is actually a large silent majority here that would listen to Obama, had he been more vocal about this.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

Ty posts a picture of some guy inadvertently doing a Nazi salute. Why? To make the funny joke the guy is a Nazi. See? Funny!

Except you guys had an actual racist/nazi in charge of your senate for decades.

That means you're limited and can't call a R a Nazi the joke isn't available to you

Or didn't the Dems let a former Klan kleagle run the senate?

My name is Hank, and I prefer to recycle Penske's shit then to ignore a stupid photo from Ty.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

My name is Hank, and I prefer to recycle Penske's shit then to ignore a stupid photo from Ty.

At least I have my answer. Hank's supporting the Nazi over the crazy woman.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

At least I have my answer. Hank's supporting the Nazi over the crazy woman.

actually, unless the Rs come up with someone else my vote won't matter again, as there is no way Obama can lose michigan to a lunatic. We'll have an R senate, an R house anyway, so I sort of don't want an R president.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

Under the circumstances that you describe, accurately, what is a president to do?

If the GOP is invested in opposing him, he has to do the best he can without their support. There's no pointing in picking a fight with them for the sake of picking that fight. But there's also no point in making policy concessions to win votes if they don't win votes. That's just negotiating against yourself.

The TP is loud and obstinate. But they are a small %% of the country. Much of the country is inclined to agree with what Obama actually wanted on the debt and deficit (if, at least for the left, somewhat reluctantly), but he failed to inspire them.

Maybe they all were inspired, and maybe they're more likely to vote for him next year, but it would have been foolish to think that he was going to inspire moderates to pressure Republicans to change their minds. For one, Republican officeholders are much more worried about losing their seats to a more conservative Republican in the primary.

The idea that Obama is to blame for failing to inspire people seems like pernicious nonsense of the Drew Westen sort to me. The President does not have that kind of ability to change public opinion. And the economy blows. I fault Obama for various things, but that's not one of them.

You seem to be saying that he had no choice but failure, because of those mean and nasty Rs. I agree that the Rs have been ridiculous in many ways. But didn't vote for them, I voted for Obama, and I do not agree that he has to surrender to them or opt for paralysis.

I agree with you that neither is an attractive choice. But I think it's foolish to think that there's much he can do to win over GOP votes on the Hill. Those people are committed to opposition, and those that aren't are afraid of those that are.

Not to channel Richard Nixon, but I believe that there is actually a large silent majority here that would listen to Obama, had he been more vocal about this.

Maybe so, but that doesn't mean that they would do anything in the near term that would move votes. Listening is easy.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

My name is Hank, and I prefer to recycle Penske's shit then to ignore a stupid photo from Ty.

I thought my caption made pretty clear how I intended the photo, but Hank is predictably inclined to read stupid thoughts into other people's posts.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I thought my caption made pretty clear how I intended the photo, but Hank is predictably inclined to read stupid thoughts into other people's posts.

Not sure what your caption was. But, in any event, I only said the photo was stupid.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I thought my caption made pretty clear how I intended the photo,

how so? It seems more like you meant it as a cover to godwin's law. Maybe you can explain?

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

If the GOP is invested in opposing him, he has to do the best he can without their support. There's no pointing in picking a fight with them for the sake of picking that fight. But there's also no point in making policy concessions to win votes if they don't win votes. That's just negotiating against yourself.

Except, making policy concessions that did not win him any votes is exactly what he did.

Maybe they all were inspired, and maybe they're more likely to vote for him next year, but it would have been foolish to think that he was going to inspire moderates to pressure Republicans to change their minds. For one, Republican officeholders are much more worried about losing their seats to a more conservative Republican in the primary.

The idea that Obama is to blame for failing to inspire people seems like pernicious nonsense of the Drew Westen sort to me. The President does not have that kind of ability to change public opinion. And the economy blows. I fault Obama for various things, but that's not one of them.

I am faulting Obama for several things. One is not inspiring people in the middle who are inclined to support the rational compromises that he sought. Another, related but more significant issue, is not demonstrating much earlier on that he had a vision that went beyond the short-term stimulus. Stimulus was, and still is, needed to deal with the economic shitheap that he was handed in January 2009. But something else is needed in the longer term to deal with the fiscal shitheap that he was also handed.

And I'm sorry, but I don't think that the right is as ironclad as you do. If I did, I think I would move. There is a hardcore, certainly, but that rarely accounts for a significant % of people. Would the GOP have listened to anyone but the hardcore? I don't know, but I hope so, and I think that making that effort was the only option Obama had.

I agree with you that neither is an attractive choice. But I think it's foolish to think that there's much he can do to win over GOP votes on the Hill. Those people are committed to opposition, and those that aren't are afraid of those that are.

Those that aren't afraid of the people committed to opposition need to become more afraid of the people who are sick of gridlock and see the president putting forth the right plan. For example, we started to see some inkling of pressure from the business community, who didn't want a default. To say that the entire R base was committed to the train wreck that the TP wanted is too dire.

Maybe so, but that doesn't mean that they would do anything in the near term that would move votes. Listening is easy.

Maybe. And surrender is even easier, and seems to be the only option you think Obama had.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

how so? It seems more like you meant it as a cover to godwin's law. Maybe you can explain?

If you think what I say about it is a cover, then there's really no point in say more, is there?