My God, you are an idiot.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sgtclub

No, I haven't. Please show me his plan. Not reports of what his plan was. Not reports on what he offered to the GOP. Show me his plan.

There you go, getting closer to the talking points! He may have said it was a plan, but we don't think it was detailed enough, we don't think it was good enough, we really wanted a bill - that's what Fox wants you to say.

Look up and watch the speech and go google for the correspondence. Had you paid attention, and were you not in denial, you'd realize he was both more forthcoming and more public in the process than any other leader in Washington.

You need to remember, the lies and obfuscations mainly work among people who have just been watching Fox. To everyone else, Obama had most of the visibility in this process.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

For someone who was so jaded about seeing the debt-ceiling negotiations as akin to other negotiations, you don't seem to get why it might be counter-productive to negotiate in public.

Do you really think that if Obama had made his proposals to Boehner public, it would have made a deal more likely? Of course not. Republicans would have lined up to piss on it, and then Boehner would have had to ask for more. Leadership doesn't entail negotiating against yourself.

You're forgetting about the budget plan he did make public (albeit not in the detail Fox wanted so they could nit-pick all the provisions in the military budget that needed restrictions on abortion added to them) back when they were debating continuing resolutions.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

There you go, getting closer to the talking points! He may have said it was a plan, but we don't think it was detailed enough, we don't think it was good enough, we really wanted a bill - that's what Fox wants you to say.

Look up and watch the speech and go google for the correspondence. Had you paid attention, and were you not in denial, you'd realize he was both more forthcoming and more public in the process than any other leader in Washington.

You need to remember, the lies and obfuscations mainly work among people who have just been watching Fox. To everyone else, Obama had most of the visibility in this process.

80% of the country watches fox?

Conf. to club- see you reap what you sow.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

you reap what you sow.

So what do you think Obama should have done about the economy this year that he hasn't done? Do you fault his leadership?

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

So what do you think Obama should have done about the economy this year that he hasn't done? Do you fault his leadership?

i was faulting club for talking to a troll.

as to the economy, candidate obama explained he was going to fix the economy. if you're saying he can't do anything, that's cool, but understand next year people might vote for someone who claims he can do something, just like we did in 08

[LessinSF]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

i was faulting club for talking to a troll.

as to the economy, candidate obama explained he was going to fix the economy. if you're saying he can't do anything, that's cool, but understand next year people might vote for someone who claims he can do something, just like we did in 08

He never claimed that "hope" was anything more real than "faith."

Unfortunately, the alternative was Alzheimers/you wish she had as good an excuse as Alzeimers.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sgtclub

I agree with Hank. Economies are about investor and consumer confidence, which can be affected positively (to a degree) through leadership. What is Obama's plan? Oh, wait, I forgot, we have to wait until he gets back from vacation in September to find that out. After 2.5 years, he finally has time to address the precise issue that got him elected in 08.
d?

that's silly. We had the stimulus and you bitched.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by LessinSF

He never claimed that "hope" was anything more real than "faith."

Unfortunately, the alternative was Alzheimers/you wish she had as good an excuse as Alzeimers.

you and i realized that. but Ty and them thought he could walk on water.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

i was faulting club for talking to a troll.

as to the economy, candidate obama explained he was going to fix the economy. if you're saying he can't do anything, that's cool, but understand next year people might vote for someone who claims he can do something, just like we did in 08

You got nothing. Got it.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

you and i realized that. but Ty and them thought he could walk on water.

For someone who has nothing to say, you sure talk a lot.

[sgtclub]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Respectfully, both of you are nuts. No one would deny that economies are affected by investor and consumer confidence, but these things are often indicators of more fundamental aspects of the economy. We have had a financial crisis and a housing bubble and we now have massive deleveraging going on. There is a lack of demand in the economy, and we're in a liquidity trap. All of these things drive poor investor and consumer confidence. The idea that Obama or any other President could say things to change their views and turn things back in the right direction is deluded in the extreme.

Of course we are real issues now. But what is compounding those issues and putting us (at least the markets) in free fall, is the absolutely lack of confidence that our leaders (Ds and Rs) have any clue how to address it. There is no backstop.

I think he thinks there is almost nothing more that he will be able to get through the Congress until the next election and that he has decided to run for office for the next 15 months.

Certainly he can't get anything through congress because he doesn't know how to lead. What would Reagan or Clinton do in this situation? What did they do when faced with similar situations? They went directly to the people, WITH A PLAN, and leveraged their popularity to get what they wanted (or much of what they wanted) through. That is leadership. What does Obama do? He sits back and "leads from behind." He abdicates his obligation as the CEO. I'm not sure why. Is he timid? Or does he not know what it takes to be THE GUY? I'm not sure, and I'm not saying this facetiously, but he didn't have any prior experience in being the man, and until you've been there, it's hard to understand what that means or what it takes to lead an entity/organization.

Since it's clear that there are things that he would do but not for the Hill GOP, I find it bizarre -- analytically -- that you keep carping about his "leadership." We have two parties with very different views on issues, and -- particularly on the GOP side -- a very great degree of discipline that prevents legislators from working across the aisle. They act this way for reasons that have everything to do with their beliefs and incentives. Do you really think that's Obama's fault? Of course it isn't.

Leaders don't make excuses, because failure ultimately rests on their shoulders. They find a way to execute. You need to face it. You guys ran the wrong person. He was a hell of a candidate, but had no experience. All hat, no cattle. You should have ran Hillary.

You believe we should cut spending in the near term in a dramatic way, even as we flirt with (and the market tanks out of fears of) a double-dip recession.

Let's be real clear here. We are talking about relatively small cuts in INCREASES to spending that won't be felt for several years down the line. That is not going to put us in a double dip.

As has been widely reported, Obama and the Democrats DID put a plan on the table during the debt-ceiling negotiations. He did not do it publicly, because he understood it would make getting a deal done harder, not easier. This has everything to do with the dynamics on the GOP side, which you -- and Gergen, I'm guessing, but I don't watch CNN except during natural disasters and wars -- show no sign of understanding. The GOP and particularly its base have a reflexive opposition to Obama. If he proposes something, they disagree, even if it's something -- say, payroll tax cuts -- they previously liked. Obama understands that making public proposals (perhaps what you mean by "leadership"?) is antithetical to making a deal with this crowd of Republicans.

If the problem is "leadership," I ask you this: Who is there out there who might be willing to follow Obama because he hasn't "led" in the right way? No one on the Hill who could actually help him accomplish anything.

Leaders are not afraid to put out their plan and take it to the public. Reagan would have gotten in his coziest suit, looked right into the camera, and told the people what was going on. Clinton would have wagged a finger or 2. This guy we have is very smart, but he is an academic. He can't execute. It's unfortunate, but it's true, and everybody knows it. I'm just saying what most Ds are saying in private. You ran the wrong guy. You got snowed with the pretty speeches and the cool swagger, and the fact that he wasn't a Clinton.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by sgtclub

Leaders don't make excuses, because failure ultimately rests on their shoulders. They find a way to execute. You need to face it. You guys ran the wrong person. He was a hell of a candidate, but had no experience. All hat, no cattle. You should have ran Hillary.

I think you're talking to the wall. Ty has never really ran anything IRL (besides overseeing the trolls here running off most non-libs). Of course Reagan and Clinton faced about the same challenges and went to the people.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sgtclub

What would Reagan or Clinton do in this situation? What did they do when faced with similar situations?

They weren't. They both had partners across the aisle that were willing to work with them. They had oppositions who didn't view their number one priority as ensuring they were one-term presidents.

ETA: By the way, it's pretty rich for you to talk about the debt ceiling negotiations as if Obama should have learned nothing from the HCR reform and budget negotiations. Like he should just keep smiling and arguing to the people that he is right while the Rs keep moving the goal post.

[sgtclub]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

I think you're talking to the wall. Ty has never really ran anything IRL (besides overseeing the trolls here running off most non-libs). Of course Reagan and Clinton faced about the same challenges and went to the people.

Sad, but they think you are being a troll with this line every time you use it. SMH.

[sgtclub]

Originally Posted by Adder

They weren't. They both had partners across the aisle that were willing to work with them. They had oppositions who didn't view their number one priority as ensuring they were one-term presidents.

ETA: By the way, it's pretty rich for you to talk about the debt ceiling negotiations as if Obama should have learned nothing from the HCR reform and budget negotiations. Like he should just keep smiling and arguing to the people that he is right while the Rs keep moving the goal post.

If you want friends, be friendly.