My God, you are an idiot.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Adder

Depends on the local law. Absent one that specifically says you do, no.



I will take this as an admission that you are aware of no specific public health threat posed by this particular protest, but you are confident that one is possible thus it's fine with you to remove them.



You mean time place and manner, but no, and that's why I said the court would likely agree with you.

Then again, anyone whose thought about for a few seconds can see how easily time place and manner (especially when grounded in bogus "public health" concerns) can be and are used to suppress legitimate speech.



Agreed. What I'm struggling with is what those other interest are here.

Man, someone defecated on a wall?! Just round up everyone in the vicinity?

Make sure Flinty's rounded up too. He's always throwing poo.

[sgtclub]

Originally Posted by Adder

Depends on the local law. Absent one that specifically says you do, no.

I believe you need one here, but am not 100% sure.

I will take this as an admission that you are aware of no specific public health threat posed by this particular protest, but you are confident that one is possible thus it's fine with you to remove them.

I will take this as an admission that you beat your wife.
Do you not understand that human waste coupled with lack of sanitation breeds disease?

You mean time place and manner, but no, and that's why I said the court would likely agree with you.

Then again, anyone whose thought about for a few seconds can see how easily time place and manner (especially when grounded in bogus "public health" concerns) can be and are used to suppress legitimate speech.

Wait, so now I'm correct on the law? So this is not a free speech issue?
Do you not see how irrational you are being.

Our Mayor is a former labor organizer. This is not exactly Nazi Germany.

Agreed. What I'm struggling with is what those other interest are here.

Really, you have to struggle with this one?

[sgtclub]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Man, someone defecated on a wall?! Just round up everyone in the vicinity?

Make sure Flinty's rounded up too. He's always throwing poo.

Why don't we just permit everyone to camp wherever they want, shit wherever they want, etc. There is no reason for rules to maintain any sense of order or civility.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sgtclub

Do you not understand that human waste coupled with lack of sanitation breeds disease?

Of course. But what's missing is the assertion that there was significant unaccounted for human waste. Are you saying these people are animals or something?

They are in front of City Hall, no? City Hall has public restrooms, no?

Again, what I've been asking you is whether there were any public heath issues, no whether some might be conceivable.

Wait, so now I'm correct on the law? So this is not a free speech issue?

I never said you were incorrect on the law, nor does being correct on the law make it not a free speech issue.

You really don't get that we might be concerned about the speech effects of conduct that's within the confines of law? Or that we might think the confines of the law are wrong or imperfect? Or that even legal conduct might still be a bad idea for non-speech reasons?

Really, you have to struggle with this one?

Yes. All I've heard for why it was necessary to use (mild) force to break up this assembly are pretty bogus-sounding public health and small business concerns.

"We would like them off our lawn" is not a very meaningful public interest.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sgtclub

Why don't we just permit everyone to camp wherever they want, shit wherever they want, etc.

I'm not sure what it says about you that you think the protesters are incapable of the basic human function of not shitting everywhere.

There is no reason for rules to maintain any sense of order or civility.

Serious question: are you trying to sound like a fascist?

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sgtclub

Why don't we just permit everyone to camp wherever they want, shit wherever they want, etc. There is no reason for rules to maintain any sense of order or civility.

Kinda radical. At the least, I'd suggest time, place and manner restrictions on shitting.

But, you know, before assembling a thousand cops at a stadium, I might suggest a few porta-potties if your health concern is focused on where people shit. I'll bet you can get six porta-potties with regular service for a month for about the cost of paying ten cops for a morning.

[sgtclub]

Originally Posted by Adder

Of course. But what's missing is the assertion that there was significant unaccounted for human waste. Are you saying these people are animals or something?

They are in front of City Hall, no? City Hall has public restrooms, no?

Again, what I've been asking you is whether there were any public heath issues, no whether some might be conceivable.

I'm saying that some of them are animals. I'm sure there are some public restrooms, and yet they insist on not using them.

It is more than just public health, it is also public safety. The groups around the country have assembled for 2 months. It does not seem unreasonable to me to move them along.

I never said you were incorrect on the law, nor does being correct on the law make it not a free speech issue.

You really don't get that we might be concerned about the speech effects of conduct that's within the confines of law? Or that we might think the confines of the law are wrong or imperfect? Or that even legal conduct might still be a bad idea for non-speech reasons?

Yes. All I've heard for why it was necessary to use (mild) force to break up this assembly are pretty bogus-sounding public health and small business concerns.

"We would like them off our lawn" is not a very meaningful public interest.

What free speech issue? If anything, it is a free assembly issue, which is quite different in my mind.

[sgtclub]

Originally Posted by Adder

I'm not sure what it says about you that you think the protesters are incapable of the basic human function of not shitting everywhere.

Some of them are not, apparently, which is why they are shitting/urinating in the street.

Serious question: are you trying to sound like a fascist?

Yes.

[sgtclub]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Kinda radical. At the least, I'd suggest time, place and manner restrictions on shitting.

But, you know, before assembling a thousand cops at a stadium, I might suggest a few porta-potties if your health concern is focused on where people shit. I'll bet you can get six porta-potties with regular service for a month for about the cost of paying ten cops for a morning.

That would be great, if they would actually use them.

This has nothing to do with the content of the protests. Getting large groups of people of any type together for any reason poses safety concerns in my book. Have you ever been to a Raider game (says the Raider fan)? Or a concert. Why do they have cops at those events?

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Kinda radical. At the least, I'd suggest time, place and manner restrictions on shitting.

But, you know, before assembling a thousand cops at a stadium, I might suggest a few porta-potties if your health concern is focused on where people shit. I'll bet you can get six porta-potties with regular service for a month for about the cost of paying ten cops for a morning.

They are down to just one porta-potty (handicapped accessible, naturally) here.

The protesters have urged their numbers to use the public facilities in nearby buildings instead to keep costs down.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sgtclub

If anything, it is a free assembly issue, which is quite different in my mind.

Really? Why?

ETA: To clarify, why is it any different? They are assembling for the purpose of speech. I'm also no con law expert, but I don't think the legal standards would be any different in this case.

And it might not be "unreasonable" to have them move along. But it might also not accomplish anything.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sgtclub

Yes, I was in the financial district during that time and witnessed it with my own eyes.

I'm curious about what you witnessed. You observed that the preponderance of the protesters had no interest in opposing war or sending some other political message but instead gathered for the purposes of causing mayhem? Really?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sgtclub

If they were all aggregated in the same public place, along with a bunch of other hooligans, drug dealers, derelicts, etc., yes.

You think homeless kids have health issues only under those circumstances? That can't be it.

I think it's that the "public" you have in mind when you say "public health" excludes homeless kids, prostesters, and other hooligans, drug-dealers, derelicts, etc.

Or maybe when you say "public health," you mean that such riff-raff are dirty, and should be relocated somewhere that respectable people don't have to see them.

Otherwise I can't make sense of what you mean by the words "public health."

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sgtclub

Um, yes. Have you ever heard of disease? No this doesn't sound like a pretext to me. We have laws, some of which require protestors to get a permit and to comply with it.

So you don't want these people to be in one place, because of the health risks. Got it.

Originally Posted by sgtclub

There is skid row, which is the most awful place I have ever been. It is truly horrific, like being on a different planet among walking cracked out zombies in utter squalor. The down and out have essentially been aggregated there more or less under the theory that it's better than having them spread out around town. The police roll through there to keep the peace, but that's about it.

I see -- it has nothing to do with public health. You want these people to be "aggregated" in one place, rather than "having them spread out around town," but you want it to be somewhere that other people don't want to go.

I don't look down on the protestors, but I think they are dangerous. They are also killing local industry downtown. This isn't about free speech.

Yes, it's not about anyone's health -- it's the effects on "local industry."

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

You think homeless kids have health issues only under those circumstances? That can't be it.

I think it's that the "public" you have in mind when you say "public health" excludes homeless kids, prostesters, and other hooligans, drug-dealers, derelicts, etc.

Or maybe when you say "public health," you mean that such riff-raff are dirty, and should be relocated somewhere that respectable people don't have to see them.

Otherwise I can't make sense of what you mean by the words "public health."

He seems to mean that some one, once or maybe more than once it's not clear, took a poo where they weren't supposed to.

This, of course, is the sort of thing that dirty hippies do, even if you provide sanitary facilities, because, well, because, um, they are dirty hippies and they like to poo where they shouldn't poo?? They want to get themselves and others sick, you see, and they want to do stuff that Fox News and the right wing spin machine can use to undermine them and stuff that gives the city a credible pretext for cracking down on them.

They are animals, after all. Who else would protest?

ETA: My office in DC was across the street from one of the many little "parks" created by the L'Enfant-planned diagonal avenues cutting through the city's grid. This particular one, like many downtown, served as a sleeping and congregating place for various homeless people, especially at night. One evening, after a long day of reviewing documents or whatever else a presumably hardworking junior Big Law associate does, I was walking past this particular park on my way home fairly late at night.

I did not notice the man squatting in the shrubberies. Well, at least not until I heard him evacuating his bowels only a few feet away from where I was on the sidewalk. It left me concerned about his diet.

I'm fairly sure he was part of the 99%.