We are all Slave now.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

And let's be honest about why this word has become popular today. It is not intended to be a serious diagnosis. It is intended to operate as a shorthand accusation. It has bite. And it's designed to have bite. You hear it and you immediately think, "that's horrid." It allows the user to throw it into a conversation like a hand grenade. Instead of talking about the varieties of different ways people deny or downplay rape, you can call them all a part of "rape culture." Cazart! You've got everybody's attention.

I think it's used to capture a variety of realities that otherwise aren't captured. The point is, it's horrid. If you have a problem with that, you have a problem with reality, not language.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by replaced_texan

i am so angry.

2

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

adder ggg thurgr[e]ed and you are engaging sebby on another vapid point?

I really don't know why I keep doing it.

Sebby: "I don't like this word because things in my head."

Everyone: "But it has an actual meaning that is useful."

Sebby: "No it doesn't because I think it means all this other shit."

Everyone: "But here's the definition. And here are examples of how it's used effectively."

Sebby: "I don't use it that way because I have assigned a bunch of other shit to it that no one else does and that's how it's used at my made-up cocktail parties too."

Everyone smashes head against wall again.

TM

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan

I take it you didn't read the rest of the wikipedia article? The term has been around since the 70s.

Are you implying that he doesn't have Wikipedia too??

TM

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

At least the words I use while it's up there have definitions that I didn't completely pull out of my asshole and present them like they were tea and biscuits.

TM

Tea and biscuits are something. The definition you offered from Wikipedia is so broad one cannot really call it a definition so much as meme. Memes aren't words. Memes are fuzzy concepts, subject to various interpretations.

Ask ten people on the street to define tea and biscuits and you'll get ten quite similar answers. Ask ten people on the street to define rape culture and you'll get more word salad than there is actual salad in an Olive Garden.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I really don't know why I keep doing it.

Sebby: "I don't like this word because things in my head."

Everyone: "But it has an actual meaning that is useful."

Sebby: "No it doesn't because I think it means all this other shit."

Everyone: "But here's the definition. And here are examples of how it's used effectively."

Sebby: "I don't use it that way because I have assigned a bunch of other shit to it that no one else does and that's how it's used at my made-up cocktail parties too."

Everyone smashes head against wall again.

TM

I can't assign anything to rape culture. It swallows all concepts around both rape itself and apologists for rape and sexual assault.

But I do know just a little bit about grammar, and when you add "culture" to a word, it usually means a culture that embraces a thing. "Car culture," "art culture," "gun culture," etc. So any person who's not involved in the academic communities that discuss "rape culture" would hear "rape culture" and think, Wait a minute... Is there a culture that's into rape? WTF? And then, of course, you'd swoop in with your totally clear definition from Wikipedia (the whole paragraph's worth of it, incorporating numerous discrete concepts) and say, "No, in this instance, we're using 'culture' to define people who apologize for sexual assault." The person hearing this would then assume, as I have here, That's pretty inartful. Why the fuck wouldn't you just call it what it is: Rape Denial, or Rape Apologism.

Apologism isn't a word, but never mind that. We're making up words here!

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Tea and biscuits are something. The definition you offered from Wikipedia is so broad one cannot really call it a definition so much as meme. Memes aren't words. Memes are fuzzy concepts, subject to various interpretations.

Ask ten people on the street to define tea and biscuits and you'll get ten quite similar answers. Ask ten people on the street to define rape culture and you'll get more word salad than there is actual salad in an Olive Garden.

You still have not read the rest of the wikipedia entry, have you?

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Adder

Strangely, you can grasp the criminal justice system generating unfair outcomes, but you also bristle at "racism" involving anything other than outright, expressed animus. Why do you have empathy for the unjustly imprisoned, but not for the unjustly withheld from opportunity? Is it first hand experience with the system, thus giving you a proximity you don't have on other issues. Or is it just the obvious involvement of the state (which is harder to see in other contexts)?

I won't answer this for Sebby because it's impossible to pin him down on anything or have a halfway decent conversation with because he stands for nothing.

But for most people, the reason they see a difference is that in your prison example someone else is doing something unjust. It's very easy to separate oneself from that example because you are not actively* participating in injustice. When it comes to racism and privilege, everyone knows (sometimes it's deep, deep down) that white people have set up a system that benefits themselves and do not want to disturb the advantages that now exist absolutely everywhere. That knowledge and reality creates an automatic and emotional reaction when it is brought up.

It works the same when it comes to rape culture. If you're a man, you know you've been part of the problem. In order to avoid admitting this out loud or even to oneself in a meaningful way--and accepting the definition is an admission--you attack the words. You attack the people who use the term. You attack liberal arts academics. Everything, everyone, just not yourself.

I was definitely one of those shitty little assholes RT is referring to. I pinched butts, snapped bras. I thought I was flirting and that it was harmless. I watched other boys do it and get away with it. Hell, lots of time that behavior was not just excused, but rewarded. That's rape culture. And admitting that I was most definitely a part of it is difficult and uncomfortable. My small, liberal arts school taught me that that shit is never appropriate. No one should be subject to that kind of treatment. No one should feel like they can act that way with impunity.

I have grown as a person. I have come to terms with the many flaws I used to have and am working on the ones I still have. Those of us who can't, throw bullshit at people who are trying to define and call attention to the things we have accepted as a society that are harmful.

TM

*And yes, there are a myriad of arguments of how people actually involve themselves in perpetuating a racist criminal justice system, but that doesn't change the fact that people can easily remove themselves from fault and point at other people.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

This is cask strength crazy.

Let's unpack this:

Your identity - as a cis, straight white man - prevents others from living their lives the way they want to live them.

I am an individual. I am not the entirety of white males. And I am not responsible for the behavior of anybody but myself. I do not care what anybody does, at all. Above all other virtues, I adhere most to live and let live. Judge no one for anything, lest ye be judged. And I fucking hate being judged, so I follow this rule absolutely.

Your presence, and the advantages you enjoy, causes others around you to have to adjust their behavior.

Yes, I've noticed all minorities part the room open for me when I enter. They all stand down. And the ladies all bow their heads.

Whether that's a person of color who knows they need to treat you with deference or a woman who does not know whether you will do her harm or a gay couple who does not know whether their existence will cause anger and violence from you.

Anyone silly enough to fear me because I'm a white male is wrongfully stereotyping me. I'm me. I'm not my skin color or sex. I'm not defined as part of a group. I'm nothing more than exactly the man sitting here, typing this. A person who is actually polite to a fault and respectful and tolerant of everyone he sees. If you fear me (this causes significant chuckling), that's on you, not me.

Anyone thinking that is as wrongheaded as a person fearing black kids walking behind him on the street simply because they are black. That person has the problem.

Because your (our) station in life means that we can and do act without fear of consequences others face, our existents prevents other from "liv[ing] as [they] feel like living."

That's half true. I don't worry about being pulled over as a black person is compelled to worry. That's a structural prejudice. But I derive no benefit from that. What is occurring there is a black person is being preyed upon by law enforcement. That has nothing to do with me, and everything to do with law enforcement acting in a predatory fashion. You're seeing a zero sum game, where I get advantage at cost to minorities. That is not the case.

This is comically ridiculous (and not in a good way).

TM

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I think it's used to capture a variety of realities that otherwise aren't captured. The point is, it's horrid. If you have a problem with that, you have a problem with reality, not language.

They are captured! That's the point. We have this neat concept called accurate use of language. There was a guy named Safire who wrote books about it. There was a comedian named Carlin who did entire bits about misuse of language. They were both quite excellent.

Anyway, there's this word called "apologist" and another called "denier," and they describe people who apologize for things (including things that shouldn't be apologized for) and deny things. "Climate change deniers" ring a bell?

And there are a lot more words than that which can be applied to people defending rotten things. I can't list them all here, but English having been around for a bit, one can find endless ways to accurately describe something horrible in an accurate manner.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Dad was an alcoholic. That whole "I've never blacked out I just fell asleep line" is what he did every night for about 20 years before getting his shit half way together. I heard that line soooo much, often as an excuse for his inability to function at a point when it was expected (say, a high school graduation he "slept" through).

And with this post, I add myself to the roughly 100 million Americans triggered in some way by this BS.

Absolutely everyone who's ever had a drink laughed out loud when he pulled that out of his ass.

TM

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I won't answer this for Sebby because it's impossible to pin him down on anything or have a halfway decent conversation with because he stands for nothing.

But for most people, the reason they see a difference is that in your prison example someone else is doing something unjust. It's very easy to separate oneself from that example because you are not actively* participating in injustice. When it comes to racism and privilege, everyone knows (sometimes it's deep, deep down) that white people have set up a system that benefits themselves and do not want to disturb the advantages that now exist absolutely everywhere. That knowledge and reality creates an automatic and emotional reaction when it is brought up.

It works the same when it comes to rape culture. If you're a man, you know you've been part of the problem. In order to avoid admitting this out loud or even to oneself in a meaningful way--and accepting the definition is an admission--you attack the words. You attack the people who use the term. You attack liberal arts academics. Everything, everyone, just not yourself.

I was definitely one of those shitty little assholes RT is referring to. I pinched butts, snapped bras. I thought I was flirting and that it was harmless. I watched other boys do it and get away with it. Hell, lots of time that behavior was not just excused, but rewarded. That's rape culture. And admitting that I was most definitely a part of it is difficult and uncomfortable. My small, liberal arts school taught me that that shit is never appropriate. No one should be subject to that kind of treatment. No one should feel like they can act that way with impunity.

I have grown as a person. I have come to terms with the many flaws I used to have and am working on the ones I still have. Those of us who can't, throw bullshit at people who are trying to define and call attention to the things we have accepted as a society that are harmful.

TM

*And yes, there are a myriad of arguments of how people actually involve themselves in perpetuating a racist criminal justice system, but that doesn't change the fact that people can easily remove themselves from fault and point at other people.

**Ha!

where does the ** go back to?

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Particularly given what Jeff Flake just did.

We agree there. If ever there was an asshole who wanted it both ways, he's the guy. What a fucking phony. I respect him less than Graham, Cornyn, and Grassley and I don't respect those fuckers at all.

TM

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I can't assign anything to rape culture. It swallows all concepts around both rape itself and apologists for rape and sexual assault.

But I do know just a little bit about grammar, and when you add "culture" to a word, it usually means a culture that embraces a thing. "Car culture," "art culture," "gun culture," etc. So any person who's not involved in the academic communities that discuss "rape culture" would hear "rape culture" and think, Wait a minute... Is there a culture that's into rape? WTF? And then, of course, you'd swoop in with your totally clear definition from Wikipedia (the whole paragraph's worth of it, incorporating numerous discrete concepts) and say, "No, in this instance, we're using 'culture' to define people who apologize for sexual assault." The person hearing this would then assume, as I have here, That's pretty inartful. Why the fuck wouldn't you just call it what it is: Rape Denial, or Rape Apologism.

Apologism isn't a word, but never mind that. We're making up words here!

I find it amazing that you can lump "gun culture" into an argument against "rape culture" without understanding how similar the two concepts are. I'd be floored if you were anyone else.

TM

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I won't answer this for Sebby because it's impossible to pin him down on anything or have a halfway decent conversation with because he stands for nothing.

But for most people, the reason they see a difference is that in your prison example someone else is doing something unjust. It's very easy to separate oneself from that example because you are not actively* participating in injustice. When it comes to racism and privilege, everyone knows (sometimes it's deep, deep down) that white people have set up a system that benefits themselves and do not want to disturb the advantages that now exist absolutely everywhere. That knowledge and reality creates an automatic and emotional reaction when it is brought up.

It works the same when it comes to rape culture. If you're a man, you know you've been part of the problem. In order to avoid admitting this out loud or even to oneself in a meaningful way--and accepting the definition is an admission--you attack the words. You attack the people who use the term. You attack liberal arts academics. Everything, everyone, just not yourself.

I was definitely one of those shitty little assholes RT is referring to. I pinched butts, snapped bras. I thought I was flirting and that it was harmless. I watched other boys do it and get away with it. Hell, lots of time that behavior was not just excused, but rewarded. That's rape culture. And admitting that I was most definitely a part of it is difficult and uncomfortable. My small, liberal arts school taught me that that shit is never appropriate. No one should be subject to that kind of treatment. No one should feel like they can act that way with impunity.

I have grown as a person. I have come to terms with the many flaws I used to have and am working on the ones I still have. Those of us who can't, throw bullshit at people who are trying to define and call attention to the things we have accepted as a society that are harmful.

TM

*And yes, there are a myriad of arguments of how people actually involve themselves in perpetuating a racist criminal justice system, but that doesn't change the fact that people can easily remove themselves from fault and point at other people.

**Ha!

Why must I have to stand for something here? I have a serious problem with these silly words. I don't like them from the left or the right.

I'm also kind of tired of dealing with people who are standing for things. I stand for this, he stands for that, she stands for this other thing. It's exhausting. Ever since Obama took office, everybody in this country has been on a pedestal about one thing or another. And since Trump has been in office... fuck it. We're a full on idiocracy. Whackos on the right screaming about how we need to take the country back. Whackos on the left "resisting" everything.

I see both sides of almost everything. I'd say I stand for compromise, but that's an oxymoron. I prefer compromise. I think it is wise.

I think putting Kavanaugh on SCOTUS is terrible for the Republic. But I'm not going to empathize with anyone about it. So fuck me, right? I'm not true resistance. I criticize left wing lingo. So fuck me again. I'm being mean on this dark day.

You're right - I don't stand for much. But I am rational. I think removing emotion from these discussions, from these arguments, allows for people to compromise, which is where we all ought to be. Is it so bad to desire clarity in language? I don't like silly words from the left any more than I like silly comments from the right. (I have about ten emails from screwballs saying Soros was behind Ford.) Enough. You're all fucking nuts. And there's no satisfying you, or engaging you. Disagreement becomes heresy... And this place is a microcosm of the whole country. A giant irrational flip out, an endless grievance carnival from the left and right, led by a lunatic and a Senate of clueless geriatrics.