Election 2010: Teabaggin' the Ds & Rs

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by sgtclub

That's not what I understand. My understanding is that the Israelis rely heavily on this.

That's my understanding too. See the part about "very difficult and expensive." You think the El Al model can be applied here? How much of your life are you willing to spend in an airport?

[LessinSF]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

That's my understanding too. See the part about "very difficult and expensive." You think the El Al model can be applied here? How much of your life are you willing to spend in an airport?

Tel Aviv airport is actually much quicker to get through than a U.S. airport.

But speaking of privacy and the 4th Amendment, check out Judge Kozinski's dissent in a recent case involving police putting a GPS device on a suspect's car. This is but a sample:

I don’t think that most people in the United States would agree with the panel that someone who leaves his car parked in his driveway outside the door of his home invites people to crawl under it and attach a device that will track the vehicle’s every movement and transmit that information to total strangers. There is something creepy and un-American about such clandestine and underhanded behavior. To those of us who have lived under a totalitarian regime, there is an eerie feeling of déjà vu. This case, if any, deserves the comprehensive, mature and diverse consideration that an en banc panel can provide. We are taking a giant leap into the unknown, and the consequences for ourselves and our children may be dire and irreversible. Some day, soon, we may wake up and find we’re living in Oceania.

http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastor...2/08-30385.pdf

[sgtclub]

Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch

What I would like is for everyone to acknowledge that allowing children/nuns/breast cancer survivors/bladder cancer survivors/rape victims/etc. to board planes without invasive screening procedures employed with everyone else involves some risk. We all balance risk differently (as noted by the 90% of people who say they have no prob with the new TSA protocols) so the only truly stupid thing one can say about all this mess is "They should use their judgment and not pat down the _______ people because the ________ people aren't the ones bringing bombs onto planes." I mean, come the fuck on -- do we think our enemies are stupid? That they're above putting C4 on a toddler? The only stupid thing one can say is "I want maximum security but I want 0.05% of the population not to be inconvenienced by these searches because it makes me feel gross to see them get frisked." That kind of thinking will eventually mean everybody's exempted OR everybody but the Muslims are exempted and in either case the security effectiveness goes to zero.

I traveled with a seven month old in December 2001. Did I freak out about the fact he was treated like a potential terrorist like the rest of us? Fuck no, because in spite of some of the things I have posted on these boards I am not a solipsistic moron.

Acknowledged, and I'm not suggesting that they shouldn't go through screening. But the non-thinking DMV-like TSA workers are not exactly masters of finesse or decorum. They are often times unthinking drones.

I don't fly much, probably 2x in the last 5 years. Both times, I went through the medal detector thingy and passed, but was subject to one of the "random" searches. The search was handled professionally, but it was invasive and I was mildly pissed off about it. I would certainly not suggest changing the procedure as a result. However, having a young child subject to a random search is a bit much for me.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by LessinSF

Tel Aviv airport is actually much quicker to get through than a U.S. airport.

But speaking of privacy and the 4th Amendment, check out Judge Kozinski's dissent in a recent case involving police putting a GPS device on a suspect's car. This is but a sample:



http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastor...2/08-30385.pdf

I'm sympathetic to his position (heck, I'm always sympthetic to protecting the 4th amendment for what seems like continual bombardment), but I think that passage might be a bit over the top.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by LessinSF

Tel Aviv airport is actually much quicker to get through than a U.S. airport.

Ah, the power of the anecdote.

Leaving that aside: Do you think that the same procedures, done by American civil servants dealing with Americans would go as quickly? Or are Israelis a little more accustomed to dealing with security procedures?

If we tried the Israeli security methods -- don't they interview every passenger and require you to get to the airport 3 hours early? -- the level of bitching would be deafening.

Beyond that -- How much does El Al spend on security every year? How much does the Israeli government spend?

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by sgtclub

Acknowledged, and I'm not suggesting that they shouldn't go through screening. But the non-thinking DMV-like TSA workers are not exactly masters of finesse or decorum. They are often times unthinking drones.

I don't fly much, probably 2x in the last 5 years. Both times, I went through the medal detector thingy and passed, but was subject to one of the "random" searches. The search was handled professionally, but it was invasive and I was mildly pissed off about it. I would certainly not suggest changing the procedure as a result. However, having a young child subject to a random search is a bit much for me.

It wasn't random, he set off the metal detector.

[Penske 2.0]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

Well said. Absolutely no portion of airport security is done for security-related purposes. The entire system is a PR campaign. Whether it's full-body scans, metal detectors, x-raying bags, disallowing transport of liquids or matches.... why, it's all just political theater. Not one person in the TSA really cares about security.

You are generally above this kind of "The Government is just a bunch of evil incompetent thugs trying to waste our time and money" meme. What happened -- bad flight this weekend?

I understood your point about distinguishing the policy makers from the enforcement folks on the ground, and it makes sense to me, to a point. the effect of the policy will ultimately be predicated on the ability of the enforcement folks to carry it out competently. they are the lab rats for trial and error, and, while I don't think most, if any, of the TSA officers on the ground are either evil and/or thuggish, I question the competency of most of them, whether it was competency to screen terrorists or competency to empty my wastebasket (and most, if not all, tasks in between).

there's no right or wrong here (at least I don't think that there is), I comfortable with the conclusion that we have different sensibilities and tolerance for the trial and error platform.

[sgtclub]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

That's my understanding too. See the part about "very difficult and expensive."

I highly doubt it would be more expensive than what is currently in place. I have nothing to back this up, but assume it would be more of a matter of reallocating personnel, rather than additional person power.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by LessinSF

Tel Aviv airport is actually much quicker to get through than a U.S. airport.

But speaking of privacy and the 4th Amendment, check out Judge Kozinski's dissent in a recent case involving police putting a GPS device on a suspect's car. This is but a sample:



http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastor...2/08-30385.pdf

As the new head of MiniLuv, I just want to say, what's wrong with Oceania? We have beautiful beitches.

[Penske 2.0]

Originally Posted by lessinsf

tel aviv airport is actually much quicker to get through than a u.s. Airport.

2.

[sgtclub]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

It wasn't random, he set off the metal detector.

I wasn't responding to that example per se, just jumping off.

It's interesting to see how people on this board line up on this issue. Not what I would have expected.

[Penske 2.0]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

Well said. Absolutely no portion of airport security is done for security-related purposes. The entire system is a PR campaign. Whether it's full-body scans, metal detectors, x-raying bags, disallowing transport of liquids or matches.... why, it's all just political theater. Not one person in the TSA really cares about security.

You are generally above this kind of "The Government is just a bunch of evil incompetent thugs trying to waste our time and money" meme. What happened -- bad flight this weekend?

Maybe he kicked the box wine habit and his head is clearing......

[Penske 2.0]

Originally Posted by sgtclub

I highly doubt it would be more expensive than what is currently in place.

Who cares? Add it to the cost of the ticket, and it will cut down on rude fats, extraneous ill mannered kids and other proles on airplanes. Unintended premium benefit.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sgtclub

I highly doubt it would be more expensive than what is currently in place. I have nothing to back this up, but assume it would be more of a matter of reallocating personnel, rather than additional person power.

I suspect they pay vastly more per employee.

But I'm guessing.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sgtclub

I wasn't responding to that example per se, just jumping off.

It's interesting to see how people on this board line up on this issue. Not what I would have expected.

If it wasn't clear, I'm mildly bothered by some of it at an intellectual level, but really couldn't care less at a practical level, and find the hand wringing and bitching and moaning more than a bit over the top.

The security procedures used by the military for their facilities (and plenty of civilians fly military planes) are vastly better but significantly less invasive. We should consider the way they do it - the people at a military base who are searching you and running the security on you are incredibly helpful and respectful - they meet you on your way in, carry your bags for you, ask you questions as you walk together, salute you after they search you, look out for your comfort, give you suggestions for your travel, and, by the time you're on the plane, they've pretty much got your entire background, itinerary, and travel plans, as well as your dietary preferences, favorite books, and last movies seen. It's pretty much one security person to each group of travelers for the 10 minutes it takes to get from the door to the plane, plus a couple of people coordinating the key check-points.

Then, of course, you freeze on a plane with minimal heating and seating designed in WWII.