Election 2010: Teabaggin' the Ds & Rs

[Penske 2.0]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

right now "status" say ty is "modifying post." whenever i see that I get hopeful that we are seeing the beginning of the movement to @50 but alas he always seems to just fix typos

At least he is not deleting as much as in the past.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Penske 2.0

At least he is not deleting as much as in the past.

[redacted]

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally Posted by Penske 2.0

That intersection only works if you choose to send your kids to public school, i.e. you choose to entrust your kids to certain people. The poor don't have that choice, and are at the mercy of whomever the Union sends us and protects at all costs. Sad that you and some of the other big brains here are so hellbent on oppressing and marginalising the least amongst us, but, to give you credit, the teachers' unions who do your bidding are doing a hellavu job at destroying our nation's youth.

Eloquent but incoherent. Everyone has a choice to homeschool (in California and Washington and many other states) and therefore the decision to send the kids to the public school is either a choice or a consequence of choices. The fact they "cannot" is only a statement that they value other things (such as full-time bankers' hours income of the custodial parent(s)) more highly.

If you think of tax-supported education as being mostly about maximizing the educational potential of your own children it is often in third place behind private school and homeschooling. If, on the other hand, you see a public benefit to making other people educate their own children whether or not they are willing to make the individual choices necessary to make it happen, then a system of taxpayer-supported schools is a no-brainer.

Your posts on this topic indicate you're mostly in the first category, so good luck with that -- a rational person would move out of an educational hellhole, perhaps someplace that pays for education at the price of being -- what was it? -- business unfriendly?

ETA "awful environment to do business."

[Tyrone Slothrop]

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch

Eloquent but incoherent. Everyone has a choice to homeschool (in California and Washington and many other states) and therefore the decision to send the kids to the public school is either a choice or a consequence of choices. The fact they "cannot" is only a statement that they value other things (such as full-time bankers' hours income of the custodial parent(s)) more highly.

If you think of tax-supported education as being mostly about maximizing the educational potential of your own children it is often in third place behind private school and homeschooling. If, on the other hand, you see a public benefit to making other people educate their own children whether or not they are willing to make the individual choices necessary to make it happen, then a system of taxpayer-supported schools is a no-brainer.

Your posts on this topic indicate you're mostly in the first category, so good luck with that -- a rational person would move out of an educational hellhole, perhaps someplace that pays for education at the price of being -- what was it? -- business unfriendly?

ETA "awful environment to do business."

I really hope I'm whiffing here, but do you realize schools in many poor neighborhoods have been broken for generations and that the parents that remain are not actively making any choice? again, unless I'm whiffing, and I hope I am, you must think the brady bunch was the mean for american families.

FWIW, I can no longer support Atticus for the new PB mod position if Ty finally does the right thing.

[Penske 2.0]

Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch

Eloquent but incoherent. Everyone has a choice to homeschool (in California and Washington and many other states) and therefore the decision to send the kids to the public school is either a choice or a consequence of choices. The fact they "cannot" is only a statement that they value other things (such as full-time bankers' hours income of the custodial parent(s)) more highly.

If you think of tax-supported education as being mostly about maximizing the educational potential of your own children it is often in third place behind private school and homeschooling. If, on the other hand, you see a public benefit to making other people educate their own children whether or not they are willing to make the individual choices necessary to make it happen, then a system of taxpayer-supported schools is a no-brainer.

Your posts on this topic indicate you're mostly in the first category, so good luck with that -- a rational person would move out of an educational hellhole, perhaps someplace that pays for education at the price of being -- what was it? -- business unfriendly?

ETA "awful environment to do business."

What Hank said regarding the "choice" available to the poor (or lower end of the middle class). Written like a true elitist. Well done. Way to help keep those inner city minorities down trodden.

On the last couple of sentences, written like someone who obviously has never run a business or paid payroll taxes for employees.....

[Penske 2.0]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

I really hope I'm whiffing here, but do you realize schools in many poor neighborhoods have been broken for generations and that the parents that remain are not actively making any choice? again, unless I'm whiffing, and I hope I am, you must think the brady bunch was the mean for american families.

FWIW, I can no longer support Atticus for the new PB mod position if Ty finally does the right thing.

I thought Club was ascending?

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Penske 2.0

On the last couple of sentences, written like someone who obviously has never run a business or paid payroll taxes for employees.....

FWIW, given that the non-experienced (hi Ty) are the ones who understand why health care didn't fuck up small business, while those of us with experience are trolls when we post about how the law will fuck up small business, I suggest that running a business and paying payroll taxes is actually detrimental for knowledge about running a business and paying payroll taxes.

no offense,

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

I really hope I'm whiffing here, but do you realize schools in many poor neighborhoods have been broken for generations and that the parents that remain are not actively making any choice? again, unless I'm whiffing, and I hope I am, you must think the brady bunch was the mean for american families.

FWIW, I can no longer support Atticus for the new PB mod position if Ty finally does the right thing.

In a real, non-anonymous discussion, I would be pointing out that the failure of inner-city schools is a bullshit crocodile tears tactic. The solution for those schools is to redistribute the high-quality teaching staff of white suburban schools, which is never. Gonna. Happen. Every President since W has espoused school choice as the solution to failing schools. We already have school choice; it's just limited to the teaching staff, and look what happens -- the schools with the most brown kids fail and their parents don't avail themselves of "the options."

Choice is bullshit. I'm calling P on the bullshit that is the opposite of choice -- "Waaah, I bought a house in this neighborhood and it was the best house I could afford and the schools still aren't good enough." Sounds to me like you optimized for the wrong variable, and now you want to compare your plight with an inner-city family's? 'Cause otherwise, you're make an argument that "public schools" suck because somebody else's school does, which is a bit like saying cars are shitty because some people are still driving beaters.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch

In a real, non-anonymous discussion, I would be pointing out that the failure of inner-city schools is a bullshit crocodile tears tactic. The solution for those schools is to redistribute the high-quality teaching staff of white suburban schools, which is never. Gonna. Happen. Every President since W has espoused school choice as the solution to failing schools. We already have school choice; it's just limited to the teaching staff, and look what happens -- the schools with the most brown kids fail and their parents don't avail themselves of "the options."

Choice is bullshit. I'm calling P on the bullshit that is the opposite of choice -- "Waaah, I bought a house in this neighborhood and it was the best house I could afford and the schools still aren't good enough." Sounds to me like you optimized for the wrong variable, and now you want to compare your plight with an inner-city family's? 'Cause otherwise, you're make an argument that "public schools" suck because somebody else's school does, which is a bit like saying cars are shitty because some people are still driving beaters.

i said my kids' school was fine. we live at 10 mile road. my son has 10 friends that the following applies to:

no dad, strong mom. kid started in Detroit schools. by third grade or so the mom busted something to get the kid an address north of 8 mile, and in my kids' friends, north of 10 mile. at the same time lots of other parents dragged junior to charter schools.

result? the kids left in Detroit schools drop out at 60%. I believe in our earlier rehash of this argument you suggested the concerned parents who dragged their kids out of these fucked up schools were at fault, and I asked if you, you brave pioneer, would leave your child in a school with a 60% dropout rate, since your kid being there would marginally improve the school.

you ignored the question. I'll answer that I would get my kid the fuck of out dodge, and I do not blame any parent who did the same.

you new theory is to take teachers that are deemed "Good" and make them quit one school district and go to some other? like freedom to contract is gone in your world?

I don't have a solution to fix how fucked up it is for the kids stuck after everyone who can get out gets out, but your "choice; they can homeschool, is broken because our dads could have had this same discussion.

annotated version: the whole world doesn't live in colonials an hour outside both napa and muir.

[Penske 2.0]

Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch

In a real, non-anonymous discussion, I would be pointing out that the failure of inner-city schools is a bullshit crocodile tears tactic. The solution for those schools is to redistribute the high-quality teaching staff of white suburban schools, which is never. Gonna. Happen. Every President since W has espoused school choice as the solution to failing schools. We already have school choice; it's just limited to the teaching staff, and look what happens -- the schools with the most brown kids fail and their parents don't avail themselves of "the options."
.

that's bullshit elitist crap. Teacher reassignment can be done, the effette liberal elitists don't have the balls to stand up to the teachers' unions. congrats.

Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch

Choice is bullshit. I'm calling P on the bullshit that is the opposite of choice -- "Waaah, I bought a house in this neighborhood and it was the best house I could afford and the schools still aren't good enough." Sounds to me like you optimized for the wrong variable, and now you want to compare your plight with an inner-city family's? 'Cause otherwise, you're make an argument that "public schools" suck because somebody else's school does, which is a bit like saying cars are shitty because some people are still driving beaters.

Not sure if you used search for my previous posts, but my schools are the worst in Seattle, which is inarguably a failed system. I've given up on whining about that specifically as it relates to me as I am happy to have found independent schools with a premium value and good ROI (and one where the parents throw good parties), as I know the failed Seattle Schools are just a symptom of far leftist tree hugger rule. For now, I am switching to Apple products in protest of the MicroSoft douchies oppressive governance here.

Also, in the meantime, by the by, I am trying to decide whether to move somewhere in the US or leave altogether.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch

In a real, non-anonymous discussion, I would be pointing out that the failure of inner-city schools is a bullshit crocodile tears tactic. The solution for those schools is to redistribute the high-quality teaching staff of white suburban schools, which is never. Gonna. Happen. Every President since W has espoused school choice as the solution to failing schools. We already have school choice; it's just limited to the teaching staff, and look what happens -- the schools with the most brown kids fail and their parents don't avail themselves of "the options."

Choice is bullshit. I'm calling P on the bullshit that is the opposite of choice -- "Waaah, I bought a house in this neighborhood and it was the best house I could afford and the schools still aren't good enough." Sounds to me like you optimized for the wrong variable, and now you want to compare your plight with an inner-city family's? 'Cause otherwise, you're make an argument that "public schools" suck because somebody else's school does, which is a bit like saying cars are shitty because some people are still driving beaters.

Having made the wrong choice, and bought the big colonial in the 'burb with "good schools", I'm now making the right choice, and buying somewhere where I can support mediocre public schools in their drive to get better while sending my kids to private schools. Private Schools that offer generous scholarships for a sizable portion of the class to kids who'd otherwise be stuck in mediocre public schools. It's a win all the way around.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Interesting how he assumed a Glengarry Glen Ross structure. Why not a structure where everybody gets a performance based bonus and it's all just a matter of degree? Only the laggards at the bottom get fired.

In my own little experience, I found offering everyone bonuses improved morale immensely and fattened the bottom line.

Give a man a job and you'll get all he needs to do not to get fired. Give a guy equity, or a bonus, and you'll get More. There is no arguing against this fact.

The question is whether improving education is just a matter of getting more from teachers.

Whatever the structure, he has a fundamental point - there are soany uncontrolled variables involved that it seems very difficult to isolate the effect of treacher performance.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Adder

The question is whether improving education is just a matter of getting more from teachers.

Whatever the structure, he has a fundamental point - there are soany uncontrolled variables involved that it seems very difficult to isolate the effect of treacher performance.

when i worked for the gov. we had performance bonuses based upon production metrics. there were several uncontrolled variables that made it easy for some to "earn" it and for others to have little chance. still, overall, it seemed to raise the overall effort.

in anything involving rating people there will be little chance of the process being perfect.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Adder

The question is whether improving education is just a matter of getting more from teachers.

Whatever the structure, he has a fundamental point - there are soany uncontrolled variables involved that it seems very difficult to isolate the effect of treacher performance.

That I agree with, but I have to ask, Does it bear repeating? Who doesn't realize there are innumerable variables and that a one size fits all plan won't work.

Debating national education policy is silly. The solution has to be implemented subjectively, on a case by case local basis.