My God, you are an idiot.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Cities are only going to get more and more expensive as traffic continues to suck and gas prices rise. Betting against urban real estate is a mistake.

Also, cities fundamentally suck, so we like to put poor people there who have no choices. More poor people, more cities.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

That's Yesterday's Conventional Thinking. Went stale about twelve months ago. Cities like NYC, SF and Boston will continue to be safe, if not great, investments in terms of r/e. Places without financial and tech centers are going to crater.

Safety and Cheaper Taxes > Fuel concerns. Cities are ahead of the curve on everything, including crime waves accruing from desperation. Those who can will run. And the suburbs have a glut of deals for them to buy. And decent public education, which most cities can't offer (forcing parents who can ill afford it in this economy to send kids to private schools).

It's a liberal totem cities are the future. *Some* cities are. But not the other 80% of them.

At least around here, outer burbs have a glut but inner burbs have done quite well. While I'm with you in the long term, because I just can't figure out how as people get choices they choose expensive, congested, grimy, cramped, and falling apart environments to live in, at the moment, I think the inner zombie burbs and cities do seem to be doing better.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

At least around here, outer burbs have a glut but inner burbs have done quite well. While I'm with you in the long term, because I just can't figure out how as people get choices they choose expensive, congested, grimy, cramped, and falling apart environments to live in, at the moment, I think the inner zombie burbs and cities do seem to be doing better.

Welcome to the hippy thinking of the 1960s.

Eta: I meant yuppie obviously.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by LessinSF

1. Finland's solid. Look at all the links and charts and graphs posted here. Basically no debt whatsoever. And the rampaging warm-blooded deadbeats (Greeks, Italians, Portugese) won't get past Holland.

2. Finland's chicks are hot, horny and direct (if you agree to go out on a date, they expect you to put out). And if you want to see what they (admittedly the high end) look like - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2-HL...eature=related (SFW). My favorite comment on the video page - "Näköjään kauneus ja matemaattiset taidot ei kulje ihan käsikädessä..näytti olevan niin vitun vaikee mennä ees numero järjestykseen."

3. Finland's so-called downsides, like weather and darkness, do not affect me. In fact, I rarely notice.

4. Global warming will make Finland increasingly balmy. I am looking at property on the soon-to-be Finnish/Estonian Riviera.

My wife's mostly Norwegian. Similar. I am a fan.

The darkness, however, might drive me nuts. I like Summer. But then, I'd get 24 hour summer a few weeks every year, no? So maybe that's a non-issue.

This is a long way of asking if I can visit down the road. And perhaps stay in your basement apartment for, say, three or four years. Just until the civil wars over here are over.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

My wife's mostly Norwegian. Similar. I am a fan.

The darkness, however, might drive me nuts. I like Summer. But then, I'd get 24 hour summer a few weeks every year, no? So maybe that's a non-issue.

is there not the opposite timing somewhere down at the bottom of South america or some New Zealand southern extreme island? you just need to go to snow bird status is all.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

At least around here, outer burbs have a glut but inner burbs have done quite well. While I'm with you in the long term, because I just can't figure out how as people get choices they choose expensive, congested, grimy, cramped, and falling apart environments to live in, at the moment, I think the inner zombie burbs and cities do seem to be doing better.

I didn't mention the exburbs. I think those have problems. Not because they're too far from cities (that's irrelevant). But because they attracted lower-to-mid-middle class buyers priced out of the regular burbs, many of whom are getting hit most acutely with layoffs, and are overleveraged. I see those things turning into wastelands of rural insolvents. That stuff's better bulldozed back into farmland.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

is there not the opposite timing somewhere down at the bottom of South america or some New Zealand southern extreme island? you just need to go to snow bird status is all.

New Zealand has that pesky ozone hole over it. I don't want to be anywhere I have to put on sunscreen to go buy a loaf of bread.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I didn't mention the exburbs. I think those have problems. Not because they're too far from cities (that's irrelevant). But because they attracted lower-to-mid-middle class buyers priced out of the regular burbs, many of whom are getting hit most acutely with layoffs, and are overleveraged. I see those things turning into wastelands of rural insolvents. That stuff's better bulldozed back into farmland.

my F-I-L is in Ann's Choice retirement village in Warminster. Warminster is pretty scary now. I'd hate to think what it'll look like once all our social contracts and police protection expire. Dad's 87. How many years before you see the wars starting, and can you recommend any good armed security in that part of Buck's?

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I didn't mention the exburbs. I think those have problems. Not because they're too far from cities (that's irrelevant). But because they attracted lower-to-mid-middle class buyers priced out of the regular burbs, many of whom are getting hit most acutely with layoffs, and are overleveraged. I see those things turning into wastelands of rural insolvents. That stuff's better bulldozed back into farmland.

They're the only place you can still get enough space to live. I have no understanding, having tried it, of how people live on less than an acre of land. Just stifling.

And, zombie land has no appreciation of good lawn sculpture.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Also, cities fundamentally suck, so we like to put poor people there who have no choices. More poor people, more cities.

In Philly, those people were stuffed in pockets outside the core downtown area. Same goes for every other city, generally. The correct answer is, "Parts of cities fundamentally suck." The nice parts, OTOH, are quite enjoyable. How can you argue with having everything you need in walking distance? That's the worst part of the suburbs. Everything's a fucking drive.

I think a sign things are really, really bad will be if we see cities shutting down a few strategically chosen roads (like DC did with the road in front of the White House). The pretext will be its part of some green initiative - to encourage more people to walk, or create something akin to a park in certain nice areas of town. But in reality, the idea will be to ring off some of the better areas to keep businesses and consumers in town. To isolate the safer spots from the unsafe areas, like Georgetown refusing a subway stop.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

They're the only place you can still get enough space to live. I have no understanding, having tried it, of how people live on less than an acre of land. Just stifling.

And, zombie land has no appreciation of good lawn sculpture.

I do. I have .80 and the lot is more than I need. I'd like an acre, I guess, but managing that would be a bitch. A buddy of mine has 5, and keeping the property together, even with an army of workers mowing regularly, is a second job. But if you like that work, I guess it's enjoyable. I like the riding mower. Fun to let the kid drive the thing on my lap. Chainsawing down pear and apple trees? Not so much. The chainsawing's fun. The clean up's a bitch.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

my F-I-L is in Ann's Choice retirement village in Warminster. Warminster is pretty scary now. I'd hate to think what it'll look like once all our social contracts and police protection expire. Dad's 87. How many years before you see the wars starting, and can you recommend any good armed security in that part of Buck's?

Bucks County will be fine. Their main seat refused a highway connecting directly to Philly to avoid having the city bleed into them and lower property values. Most of the property out there is owned by NYers, and they keep it nice. In fact, many people actually commute to NY from a train stop in Bucks. I think you can get an Amtrak there.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

In Philly, those people were stuffed in pockets outside the core downtown area. Same goes for every other city, generally. The correct answer is, "Parts of cities fundamentally suck." The nice parts, OTOH, are quite enjoyable. How can you argue with having everything you need in walking distance? That's the worst part of the suburbs. Everything's a fucking drive.

I think a sign things are really, really bad will be if we see cities shutting down a few strategically chosen roads (like DC did with the road in front of the White House). The pretext will be its part of some green initiative - to encourage more people to walk, or create something akin to a park in certain nice areas of town. But in reality, the idea will be to ring off some of the better areas to keep businesses and consumers in town. To isolate the safer spots from the unsafe areas, like Georgetown refusing a subway stop.

Georgetown refused a subway stop?

There is no reason gated communities can't be in a city instead of just in the burbs. Memphis has rebuilt it's downtown living areas with them. It's wrong, and quite an ugly statement, but they're there.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I do. I have .80 and the lot is more than I need. I'd like an acre, I guess, but managing that would be a bitch. A buddy of mine has 5, and keeping the property together, even with an army of workers mowing regularly, is a second job. But if you like that work, I guess it's enjoyable. I like the riding mower. Fun to let the kid drive the thing on my lap. Chainsawing down pear and apple trees? Not so much. The chainsawing's fun. The clean up's a bitch.

When you have 10 acres, you stop thinking about the whole property as a fucking suburban lawn. A little lawn and a garden is nice, but you also need a bit of meadow and some woods and a nice place by the stream to kick back while the dogs run.

People who want to walk to everything usually forget that part of everything is that bench by the stream with no one around. I need a vista. If I were ever going to live in the city, I'd have to be by the water front or looking over everything.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I do. I have .80 and the lot is more than I need. I'd like an acre, I guess, but managing that would be a bitch. A buddy of mine has 5, and keeping the property together, even with an army of workers mowing regularly, is a second job. But if you like that work, I guess it's enjoyable. I like the riding mower. Fun to let the kid drive the thing on my lap. Chainsawing down pear and apple trees? Not so much. The chainsawing's fun. The clean up's a bitch.

Ugh. I grew up with yardwork. I have no interest in any of this crap anymore. I'll keep my heinously expensive SF house, with its postage-stamp yard and a host of good restaurants, bars and bakeries within walking distance (or a short bus ride if the hills are too daunting).