Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

I regularly walk into Italian restaurants where the chefs are Latino or Asian. What's the difference?

Every restaurant you walk into in the US today, the chefs are mainly latino, and a disproportionately large percentage of them come from the Mexican State of Pueblo.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

I'd missed that one, but yes, it is interesting, and I generally agree, to paraphrase TM, that the environment poorer folks live in the US encourages cooperation and altruism much more than the environment rich folks live in, which often feeds their individualism and selfishness.

But, of course, I've known some poor folks who were shits and some rich folks I'd nominate for sainthood. Rich people just have different obstacles to overcome.

Or, as I tell my kids, I have failed to give them one very important thing in this life: poverty. And they will have to overcome that problem with their upbringing.

For reasons that aren't relevant, I have had opportunity to see this in action. I have seen someone buy a loaf of bread and a jar of peanut butter with money they got collecting cans go home and share half of that bread and peanut butter with a neighbor who had no food or money. Let's say it has changed my notions of generosity and caring.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Adder

There are other forces at work - people valuing different mixes of amenities that are leading them out of the suburbs and a life centered around driving everywhere - that could eventually leads to changes in urban schools too.

That's the thing that first started the decline in urban neighborhoods. Not just the schools, but the property values, safety, availability of stores and jobs within walking distance. Back then, people didn't use euphemisms like "mixes of amenities." It was just plain old white flight.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by taxwonk

Every restaurant you walk into in the US today, the chefs are mainly latino, and a disproportionately large percentage of them come from the Mexican State of Pueblo.

Absolutely true as to European/American places, I mean, I assume you've read Kitchen Confidential. As to Asian, absolutely untrue. But I don't really care, I was just messing with Flower.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

Absolutely true as to European/American places, I mean, I assume you've Kitchen Confidential. As to Asian, absolutely untrue. But I don't really care, I was just messing with Flower.

I thought you'd self-deported?

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Poor people (and most of my experience with poor people revolves around poor people of color) give shit up to other poor people all the time. The attitudes I see in poor neighborhoods do not exist in wealthy ones. Wealthy neighborhoods are designed to not only keep people out, but to isolate families with fences and huge lots and private clubs, within. I know plenty of poor people and they look out for each other. I know plenty of well-off people and sure, they give to charities, but if the family down the street is struggling it's just a shame.

They've actually done studies on this. As people get lots of money, by whatever means, a large percentage start believing they are better than everyone else, and that's why they have the money. This breeds a survival of the fittest attitude they use as cover to assuage guilt at not helping others, or as justification for screwing others.

I know you've seen this shit in finance people a lot. Nothing pisses off rich entitled greedheads more than being told part of why they're where they are is luck. Fucks up their whole life narrative. Thankfully, this only applies to about half of rich people.

I'm sure you've seen those videos where a guy, dressed normally, goes out and asks people if he can have some of their food because he's hungry and gets rejected by people with money again and again, but asks a homeless man if he can have some of his pizza because he is really hungry and is immediately given a share. Or the video of the homeless man who is handed a winning lottery ticket (for like a few hundred bucks) who wants to share it with the guy who set it up as an experiment. Whether it's something like that or the study that showed that it's the older, poor, black women who are x-times more likely to give up their seat to a pregnant woman on public transportation, there's just a different attitude that comes from having nothing and not believing you deserve a ton of shit.

The poor have empathy the rich either lost or never had the need to develop. The rich are also addicted to comfort. They aren't standing for anybody unless you make them.

It's not happenstance the rich are often less religious and less community oriented. They don't need those social or spiritual currencies anymore. They can buy what they need, and if you've got money, you don't need the comfort of hoping there's a better afterlife somewhere. Shit's good now. Much as I'm an agnostic leaning atheist and largely libertarian sort, I have to admit - this creates callous people.

I think it's easy to say that we focus on our families because it's the acceptable way of saying, I don't give a fuck about other people. But, like you said, we really should recognize that that's what we're saying. If your attitude is, "I want to give my child every advantage in life," okay. But no one should pretend that there isn't a flip side to that coin.

I think the appropriate course is to use every means at your disposal to give your kid advantages. But draw the line at supporting policies that actively screw other kids out of them. It's okay to play a good hand for all its worth. It's not okay to actively work to rig up the game to shut out all the players with less means.

It's how to do that, and where to draw that line, where shit gets tricky.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

I thought you'd self-deported?

Hi, I will be out of the Lawtalkers political anonymous chatting board for lawyers starting Friday, December 12 and continuing through forever. If you need immediate assistance, please feel free to direct your vile personal attack, confused blog-induced opinion, or pathetic attempt to gain favor by paraphrasing something ty posted earlier, to Pretty Little Flower. Thank you and happy eternity!

Indifference,

Hank Chinaski

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by taxwonk

For reasons that aren't relevant, I have had opportunity to see this in action. I have seen someone buy a loaf of bread and a jar of peanut butter with money they got collecting cans go home and share half of that bread and peanut butter with a neighbor who had no food or money. Let's say it has changed my notions of generosity and caring.

Also consider this... A lot of the people who appear rich are levered up their eyeballs. I still gag when somebody uses the term "rich lawyers." Joe Sixpack seems to have no clue about how many "rich" people are actually cash poor flashy fucks. Their Benz is leased, they're house poor carrying the McMansion, they're shuffling credit cards and stealing from their business lines of credit, and they're selling shit on EBay to pay the kids' tuitions at Fistlethwait Academy.

The Joneses are the ultimate suckers at the table. Dumb fucks could retire by 45 if they did it right. But instead, they're Living the Dream, just as Madison Ave has sold it to successions of clueless upper middle class fucks for a century (or at least since Edward Bernays came on the scene).

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

You may well think I'm a racist.

In hiring, I strongly disfavor someone who has been handed too much and hire people who have had obstacles to overcome. Give me a young lawyer who grew up poor and black in the Bronx over someone who grew up in a wealthy homogenous suburb any day. Also, I like people with language skills, especially Chinese language, and so definitely favor first generation immigrants, often people of color.

"You guys have it real easy. I never had it like this where I grew up. But I send my kids here because the fact is you go to one of the best schools in the country: Rushmore. Now, for some of you it doesn't matter. You were born rich and you're going to stay rich. But here's my advice to the rest of you: Take dead aim on the rich boys. Get them in the crosshairs and take them down. Just remember, they can buy anything but they can't buy backbone. Don't let them forget it. Thank you."

- Harman Blume, Speech to Rushmore Academy (1998)

[Not Bob]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Also consider this... A lot of the people who appear rich are levered up their eyeballs. I still gag when somebody uses the term "rich lawyers." Joe Sixpack seems to have no clue about how many "rich" people are actually cash poor flashy fucks. Their Benz is leased, they're house poor carrying the McMansion, they're shuffling credit cards and stealing from their business lines of credit, and they're selling shit on EBay to pay the kids' tuitions at Fistlethwait Academy.

The Joneses are the ultimate suckers at the table. Dumb fucks could retire by 45 if they did it right. But instead, they're Living the Dream, just as Madison Ave has sold it to successions of clueless upper middle class fucks for a century (or at least since Edward Bernays came on the scene).

Dude, Joe Six-Pack is equally overextended - only he has a rusted-out 1996 Ford F-150, an underwater 2 bedroom 1 bath tract house, and has garage sales to pay for his kid's Little League fees. That "lawyers ain't rich" schtick is, frankly, bullshit.* I guarantee you that even if Joe's house was still appreciating, his truck was paid off and not in need of new tires and brakes, and the Little League fees were waived, he'd happily trade it all for an underwater McMansion and a leased Benz,

I mean, Lord Grantham constantly whines on Downton Abbey** about high taxes and being broke, too.

* Yes, not all lawyers are "rich" per the standards of Not Bob and Joe Six-Pack, but we're not talking about legal aid lawyers, assistant DAs/assistant public defenders, or others who earn less than a Starbucks assistant manager.

** Yeah, I know. But I have a little crush on the actress who plays Lady Mary and the Irish chauffeur's Fenian past appeals to me.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

Absolutely true as to European/American places, I mean, I assume you've read Kitchen Confidential. As to Asian, absolutely untrue. But I don't really care, I was just messing with Flower.

It's happening in Asian restaurants as well. My favorite Vietnamese place has one Vietnamese and three Mexican cooks.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Not Bob

I guarantee you that even if Joe's house was still appreciating, his truck was paid off and not in need of new tires and brakes, and the Little League fees were waived, he'd happily trade it all for an underwater McMansion and a leased Benz,

This is what amazes me. He wouldn't. Poor people want to be able to eat every day. Luxury would include meat and fresh fruits or vegetables, the rent money squared away on the 1st, and a chance to go anywhere other than County for health care, all of which is administered at the ER. In my admittedly limited experience with the poor, most of them would be baffled by the notion that anyone would pay for a car what they would have to pay to buy a house.

[Not Bob]

Originally Posted by taxwonk

This is what amazes me. He wouldn't. Poor people want to be able to eat every day. Luxury would include meat and fresh fruits or vegetables, the rent money squared away on the 1st, and a chance to go anywhere other than County for health care, all of which is administered at the ER. In my admittedly limited experience with the poor, most of them would be baffled by the notion that anyone would pay for a car what they would have to pay to buy a house.

I don't think of Joe Six-Pack as poor. I think of him as working class, aka lower middle class. He owns a house and a car; if he were poor, he'd probably rent and take the bus, and his kids certainly wouldn't play Little League.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Not Bob

I don't think of Joe Six-Pack as poor. I think of him as working class, aka lower middle class. He owns a house and a car; if he were poor, he'd probably rent and take the bus, and his kids certainly wouldn't play Little League.

An awful lot of working class people are making about $10-$12 an hour right now, as 1099 contractors and their hours kept well below the threshold for getting them in ERISA trouble. $420 a week doesn't buy much. Joe's kids might still be able to play little league through the park district or Boys and Girls Clubs of America (an incredible organization if anyone needs a last-minute charitable contribution deduction).

[Not Bob]

Originally Posted by taxwonk

An awful lot of working class people are making about $10-$12 an hour right now, as 1099 contractors and their hours kept well below the threshold for getting them in ERISA trouble. $420 a week doesn't buy much. Joe's kids might still be able to play little league through the park district or Boys and Girls Clubs of America (an incredible organization if anyone needs a last-minute charitable contribution deduction).

Oh, I agree that the working class is becoming the working poor. Marketplace, IIRC, did a great series on this phenomenon. But the gradual disappearance of the working class/lower middle class isn't what I was talking about.

My point was that Sebby is nuts to say that Joe Six-Pack's view of the Typical Lawyer of the Fashion Tips Board as "rich" is wrong, and to (based upon my own working class relatives in the Ancestral Homeland), assure him that (a) they're as overextended as we all are, only our houses, cars, and booze/food is much nicer; and (2) my cousin Mark (whose bungalow and 2004 Jeep Liberty are both paid off) would be delighted to trade it for an underwater McMansion and a leased E-Class if he had the income to (barely) service said expenses.

We all have money stresses - wouldn't you rather be worried about your bills while driving home, listening to the Angry Grrl channel on Sirius sitting on a seat made of fine Corinthian leather, in your leased Benz (as opposed to the Clear Channel commercial-filled AOR FM radio station while stuck in traffic with no A/C in a paid off Dodge Dart from the Bush I administration)?

Yeah. Me too.