This is the thread where the fringster comes back with teeth

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by dtb

You won't find me touting the wonders of Strunk & White as a grammar book. It's more of a substantive guide for writing that I really don't have an opinion about. I can't really recall any grammar sections, but I won't swear that there aren't any.

I'm more of a Chicago Manual gal. And I really love the book "Woe is I".

We have been suffiering through my daughter's teacher's obsession with MLA. Both the grammar and the citation elements of the MLA would make y'all wish for old Strunk and White. They may have been idiots, but they were at least sensible and consistent idiots.

The citation is particularly horrid, since it is neither treated as a separate grammatical statement, as in Blue Book or Chicago, nor as a pure parenthetical reference outside the grammatical structure. Instead, it's a little of each.

All this is to say, be careful when proofing a child's paper for citations, lest you "fix" something by breaking it.

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

We have been suffiering through my daughter's teacher's obsession with MLA. Both the grammar and the citation elements of the MLA would make y'all wish for old Strunk and White. They may have been idiots, but they were at least sensible and consistent idiots.

The citation is particularly horrid, since it is neither treated as a separate grammatical statement, as in Blue Book or Chicago, nor as a pure parenthetical reference outside the grammatical structure. Instead, it's a little of each.

All this is to say, be careful when proofing a child's paper for citations, lest you "fix" something by breaking it.

Does anyone even care about the "that vs. which" distinction any more? I am pretty strict about changing "which" to "that" when which is used in a restictive clause, per the examples found here:

http://www.kentlaw.edu/academics/lrw...rsus_Which.htm

But it is happening so often, I am beginning to wonder whether this rule is obsolete.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

Does anyone even care about the "that vs. which" distinction any more? I am pretty strict about changing "which" to "that" when which is used in a restictive clause, per the examples found here:

http://www.kentlaw.edu/academics/lrw...rsus_Which.htm

But it is happening so often, I am beginning to wonder whether this rule is obsolete.

I expect my associates to fix that when I screw up. And to do it Strunk and White Style, like you do.

Here's the MLA approach to the same problem:

that / which

There several cases when that is more appropriate than and is preferred to which:

After the pronouns all, any(thing), every(thing), few, little, many, much, no(thing), none, some(thing):

The police usually ask for every detail that helps identify the missing person. - that used as the subject

Marrying a congressman is all (that) she wants. - that used as the object

After verbs that answer the question WHAT? For example, say, suggest, state, declare, hope, think, write, etc. In this case, the whole relative clause functions as the object of the main clause:

Some people say (that) success is one percent of talent and ninety-nine percent of hard work.

The chairman stated at the meeting (that) his company is part of a big-time entertainment industry.

After the noun modified by an adjective in the superlative degree:

This is the funniest story (that) I have ever read! - that used as the object

After ordinal numbers, e.g., first, second, etc.:

The first draft (that) we submitted was really horrible. - that used as the object

If the verb in the main clause is a form of BE:

This is a claim that has absolutely no reason in it. - that used as the subject

[Flinty_McFlint]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

Does anyone even care about the "that vs. which" distinction any more? I am pretty strict about changing "which" to "that" when which is used in a restictive clause, per the examples found here:

http://www.kentlaw.edu/academics/lrw...rsus_Which.htm

But it is happening so often, I am beginning to wonder whether this rule is obsolete.

It's been keeping me up late at night, actually. It's the one thing which does that.

[greatwhitenorthchick]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

Does anyone even care about the "that vs. which" distinction any more? I am pretty strict about changing "which" to "that" when which is used in a restictive clause, per the examples found here:

http://www.kentlaw.edu/academics/lrw...rsus_Which.htm

But it is happening so often, I am beginning to wonder whether this rule is obsolete.

I care about it. And it burns me up beyond description when a certain partner changes my "thats" back to "whichs". Drives me fucking insane.

Speaking of being driven nuts, I have PMS. Last night I was rushing to get to my therapist because, goddamit, time is money and I haz problems. Anyhoo, there was a geriatic posse in front of me taking up the whole sidewalk and taking their sweet time strolling along. I cursed them under my breath a few times but they didn't move out of the way. Finally I stepped on the street to get around them -- well, it was sweet little Dr. Ruth and her entourage. I felt ashamed. She's one of my heroes. And so cute! About two feet tall in sensible shoes.

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

Does anyone even care about the "that vs. which" distinction any more? I am pretty strict about changing "which" to "that" when which is used in a restictive clause, per the examples found here:

http://www.kentlaw.edu/academics/lrw...rsus_Which.htm

But it is happening so often, I am beginning to wonder whether this rule is obsolete.

I am quite sure I've always used "which" and "that" properly without really ever knowing that rule. Substituting "that" for "which" (and vice-versa) in the examples from your link just sounds/feels...wrong.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally Posted by dtb

You won't find me touting the wonders of Strunk & White as a grammar book. It's more of a substantive guide for writing that I really don't have an opinion about. I can't really recall any grammar sections, but I won't swear that there aren't any.

I'm more of a Chicago Manual gal. And I really love the book "Woe is I".

"C" is for cookie. That's good enough for me.





Or is it "which"?

[greatwhitenorthchick]

Originally Posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?

I am quite sure I've always used "which" and "that" properly without really ever knowing that rule. Substituting "that" for "which" (and vice-versa) in the examples from your link just sounds/feels...wrong.

You have a finely-honed grammar instinct? Kudos.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Shape Shifter

"C" is for cookie. That's good enough for me.





Or is it "which"?

Please don't use contractions in formal writing.

-1

[Gattigap]

Originally Posted by Shape Shifter

"C" is for cookie. That's good enough for me.





Or is it "which"?

I believe it's "dat."

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally Posted by greatwhitenorthchick

You have a finely-honed grammar instinct? Kudos.

I don't think so, but I can't explain it.

Somewhat apropos, I have an okay memory, but not a fantastic one. I still don't understand how I'm able to remember all of my passwords for different sites/email addresses/etc. I have about 20 different passwords, and I (seemingly) subconsciously type in the right one 98% of the time. Is that normal? Or am I amazing?

I've thought about it. Not amazing. I suppose we all knew every single HS friend's phone number before cell phones.

[greatwhitenorthchick]

Originally Posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?

I don't think so, but I can't explain it.

Somewhat apropos, I have an okay memory, but not a fantastic one. I still don't understand how I'm able to remember all of my passwords for different sites/email addresses/etc. I have about 20 different passwords, and I (seemingly) subconsciously type in the right one 98% of the time. Is that normal? Or am I amazing?

I've thought about it. Not amazing. I suppose we all knew every single HS friend's phone number before cell phones.

You're amazing. Between this and the November Rain church visit, I declare this the week of Coltrane.

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally Posted by greatwhitenorthchick

you're amazing. Between this and the november rain church visit, i declare this the week of coltrane.

What about the rattlesnake?

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?

What about the rattlesnake?

rattlesnakes are like super heroes- only Ameircans get them.

can you describe your role in the killing? was it more in the location end, say, "holy crap, there's a snake, i ain't going over there."

Or do you claim to have pulled a trigger?

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

rattlesnakes are like super heroes- only Ameircans get them.

can you describe your role in the killing? was it more in the location end, say, "holy crap, there's a snake, i ain't going over there."

Or do you claim to have pulled a trigger?

I hit it with a cinder block.

And we only killed it because it was directly in front of the entrance to the casita.