This is the thread where the fringster comes back with teeth

[greatwhitenorthchick]

Originally Posted by notcasesensitive

Hey there peoples. I'm having a problem figuring out how to deal with a friend of mine who is crying out for help, and has been for some time, with alcohol, depression and other mental health issues. I am and always have been an "I'm ok, you're ok" kind of person, meaning I'll listen to your issues and give advice if solicited, but I'm not confrontational and I'm unlikely to be the person to give advice or intrude on any larger scale. Here's the (somewhat) abbreviated version of the background:

My friend and I were close in our 20's when we were both in relationships. We have lived in different cities for some time and see each other infrequently now. She divorced about 5 years ago and since then has been in a series of disasterous or unhealthy relationships (ranging from being involved with a married man who decided not to leave his wife to being with someone who tells her that he doesn't see her as The One for him and he's just biding time until he finds Ms. Right). She is one of those women who believes she needs a man in her life, so she's staying with Mr. Not The One.

In addition, she has had serious problems with alcohol. She lost a job that she really liked a few years ago because she was drinking heavily and she stopped being a reliable employee (didn't show up for work on days after she got drunk, etc.). She's been in rehab a couple of times and she's taken the pills that make a person sick if they consume alcohol, but she is currently trying to be a social drinker.

She was laid off from a job she liked about a year ago and since then she's been unable to find work and she's depressed about that, along with everything else.

She is incredibly needy in person. Every time I've seen her in the last 5 years, it has at some point (or at many points) devolved into her tearfully asking me whether she's a good person, whether I think she's pretty, or for other sorts of affirmations of her worth. She also seems to think of things in a rather judgmental -- maybe that isn't the right description -- way. For example she really seems to think that people can be described as being a Good Person or a Bad Person. Which feels like some part of her mental illness to me, but I'm not sure. Another way she is draining, at least to me, is that she is unable to sit in any semblance of silence. She fills any open space with inane stories (or needy pleas).

She sees a therapist regularly, but I'm not sure it is making any progress. If it came down to me saying what I think, I'd say she needs to get off alcohol again and finally figure out her self-worth issues. I know everything is tied together here and honestly I can't figure out whether she could handle getting out of her unsatisfying relationship right now because she is SO in need of outside support and I guess having someone there is acting as support, even though it is totally unhealthy.

Thus far I've been a listener and I've given limited advice about the relationship when asked, but clearly there is more going on here and she's sort of wearing me out. I'm not a caring nurturer (hence no kids) and in some ways I'm about to snap, so I've tried to stay neutrally supportive without buying into all of her pleas for compliments. This makes me feel a bit like I'm withholding, but I'm not sure what to do. It feels false to me to tell her things I don't really believe and yet I don't know if she has the mental health to deal with any sort of reality here.

Alright, I guess I'm talking myself in circles here, so I'll end this post with a some general questions.

How would you deal, or not deal, with this? Is it my business to try to get her help, knowing that this has been going on for some time, or should I just do my typical non-intrusive support thing? I don't communicate with other people close to her and I live far away. I did see her for a weekend recently and it was a completely draining experience for me. It is clear she needs help but I really don't know what to do.

I know what I would do. I would avoid her as much as possible. She's got a therapist and you're not her keeper. I do not know if that is the right thing to do, but it tends to be my MO when my friends/boyfriends/acquaintances have problems that are above my skill level. Probably before I started avoiding her I would strongly encourage her to step up the therapy sessions or get a new one if that one is not working.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by notcasesensitive

How would you deal, or not deal, with this? Is it my business to try to get her help, knowing that this has been going on for some time, or should I just do my typical non-intrusive support thing? I don't communicate with other people close to her and I live far away. I did see her for a weekend recently and it was a completely draining experience for me. It is clear she needs help but I really don't know what to do.

You don't sound like you guys are very good friends. And you don't live in the same city or know her closer friends, so your help will truly be limited. I would do some heavy research on therapists in her area and call her and tell her that you were really helped by a therapist (whether that is true or not) and that your (possibly fake) therapist recommended such-and-such to you in her area. Tell her how important it is to have someone who is impartial to talk to 2-3 times a week. If you find a good therapist, hopefully they can deal her image issues and her alcohol abuse (which sound highly related).

It's too bad you don't know her closer friends, because if she can't afford therapy, maybe they could help out a bit.

TM

eta: Oops. Looks like she's already seeing a therapist. Oh well. Not much you can do without becoming her surrogate mommy.

[Sparklehorse]

Originally Posted by greatwhitenorthchick

I would strongly encourage her to step up the therapy sessions or get a new one if that one is not working.

Second this.

If you actually care about her for reasons other than vague sentiment for the old days together, have one honest conversation with her where you express concern about her well-being and that she needs more/better therapy.

[Flinty_McFlint]

Originally Posted by greatwhitenorthchick

I know what I would do. I would avoid her as much as possible. She's got a therapist and you're not her keeper. I do not know if that is the right thing to do, but it tends to be my MO when my friends/boyfriends/acquaintances have problems that are above my skill level. Probably before I started avoiding her I would strongly encourage her to step up the therapy sessions or get a new one if that one is not working.

It's a very tough situation, but I'm with Adder and Gwink on this. (Whee!) I try very hard not to be truly critical of my friends, but I fail all the time (this is one of my issues, being a judgmental asshole), and nothing sets me off more than seeing people doing the same exact shit over and over again, especially when they ask for help on that very matter and don't listen to the advice. But I also realize one of the hardest things to do in the world is to change yourself. Usually the tipping point for me is when I see that there's relatively little hope that the friend will ever change, and it gets just too aggravating or draining to deal with it. At that point, I call it a day and essentially start disengaging gradually. I don't make a big statement or anything like that, that would be just mean. I feel bad about it, of course, but if it's a lost cause, and it's effecting you negatively, I think it's self-preservation. If it doesn't bother you, then just continue to be supportive. Of course, if I see improvement and real attempts to change/fix/whatever is messing them up, then I won't give up, but that's pretty rare.

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally Posted by Sparklehorse

Second this.

If you actually care about her for reasons other than vague sentiment for the old days together, have one honest conversation with her where you express concern about her well-being and that she needs more/better therapy.

Whether she needs more therapy, or different therapy, is a matter possibly beyond the scope of the friendship. I've never suggested it to any of my friends, beyond saying something like "Have you considered finding someone to talk to about this? (Cough professional cough cough.)"

Her drinking is, however, an appropriate issue. Sure, she's unpleasant to be around because of her mood issues, but it sounds like her mood issues are related to drinking. I don't promise success, but the best and perhaps last gift you can give her as a friend is another step on the road to realizing her drinking is making her more alone and unhappy. If you do break off the friendship, leave her thinking it was your inability to deal with her ongoing dependence on alcohol rather than more generalized mood or mental health issues. That's the only aspect of this where there's hope that what you do will influence a positive change. You won't be the bottom, but better not to offer her a false ledge on the way down.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Quick thoughts:

(1) She is getting help in the form of her therapist, but it doesn't seem to be working. You're not in a position to get her help, but if you feel you must be part of her trainwreck or want to help because you're a good friend, I think you end up trying to talk to her family and see what they're doing.

(2) There is no benefit to anyone in being dishonest to her. If she calls for affirmation, be honest, not politic. "Am I pretty" - "well, the drink is starting to show and you sure as hell don't look great in the middle of or after a bender, but if you got yourself together, yeh, not bad."

(3) She needs a life changing experience - a trip to an Indian ashram, a move to the Farm, peace corpd, religion, etc. - so she'll stop dwelling on her own boring and sick self. Introduce her to Less for some traveling or to Adder just for fun. Or tell her she should join a nunnery for a while instead of rehab. Or invite her to sleep on a beach during a Tsunami.

I have a friend in a similar situation. I would agree with most of this stuff, and add that if you do get involved it's helpful to have others who are part of the recovery team as backup. There are about three or four of us who kept an eye on our alcoholic friend while she was in the downspiral, and it was useful for us to have each other (a) to take up the slack if she was too much for one of us, and (b) to consult with each other about the best way to mention "hey, you're drinking hard again, and we're worried that you're fucking up a good guy in your quest to maintain relationships even though they're going nowhere." She's in Costa Rica right now for an indefinite amount of time.

Also, right before she went into rehab in the summer of 08, she got a dog, and that seemed to help a lot. Having both the responsibility of another being and that unconditional love you get with a dog seemed to boost her self-worth a lot. I know a few other depressed people who have been prescribed pet therapy, and I can't really imagine life without pets to make me feel better about my surroundings.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

so, as I predicted, about 100 Hollywood types signed a petition saying Polanski has got to be released. under the catagory, "doesn't Understand When his name does more harm than good," the Woodster signed it. That is one guy divorced from reality, huh?

There was a grammatical error in the petition, so I don't think the writers are on board.

The petition is in the name of free travel to cultural events, without fear of arrest. I'm sorry, it's a damn industry association circle jerk, not a meeting of the UN.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan

I have a friend in a similar situation. I would agree with most of this stuff, and add that if you do get involved it's helpful to have others who are part of the recovery team as backup. There are about three or four of us who kept an eye on our alcoholic friend while she was in the downspiral, and it was useful for us to have each other (a) to take up the slack if she was too much for one of us, and (b) to consult with each other about the best way to mention "hey, you're drinking hard again, and we're worried that you're fucking up a good guy in your quest to maintain relationships even though they're going nowhere." She's in Costa Rica right now for an indefinite amount of time.

Also, right before she went into rehab in the summer of 08, she got a dog, and that seemed to help a lot. Having both the responsibility of another being and that unconditional love you get with a dog seemed to boost her self-worth a lot. I know a few other depressed people who have been prescribed pet therapy, and I can't really imagine life without pets to make me feel better about my surroundings.

I think pets are an excellent alternative to Less, but it's also possible to do both.

Count me as pro-pet.

[dtb]

Originally Posted by Flinty_McFlint

I feel bad about it, of course, but if it's a lost cause, and it's effecting you negatively, I think it's self-preservation.

Eggs-actly.

You have given it the ol' college try, and it's just not working. If she ever questions you about your disengaging, you can be honest (with kindness, natch) that it is upsetting to you to watch her deteriorate, and that you have tried, but watching the train wreck (ok, so don't call it a train wreck) that is her life is overly distressing to you.

ETA: AND... what Atticus said.

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

So for a kid who'd rather play softball

Uh oh.

[notcasesensitive]

Thanks, guys! It is helpful to hear the advice to step back. I probably will try one heart-to-heart with her at some point (when I've recovered from the most recent visit a bit), because I feel I would regret it if I sat by silently and something bad happened, which is the way this seems to be heading. I've realized over the last few years that she is incapable of being a friend to me, so I'm comfortable with the relationship fading away, though I'd like to know there are some people who are there for her, because she really is pretty isolated at this point.

Partial responses to points you guys raised:

(1) She has cats. And her parents live about an hour away from her. And she has a roommate. Other than her boyfriend, I don't think she has any close friends.

(2) I think when we were closer friends I was unaware of any of these issues. There were probably clues of neediness and I knew her mom was an alcoholic, but I only knew her when she was happily in a relationship, so many of the self-worth problems became apparent when that relationship went away.

[Gattigap]

Originally Posted by notcasesensitive

(1) She has cats.

Shame that it's not a dog. Dogs are really good in helping people with fragile personalities.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?

Uh oh.

I realize you're joking, but is this a "she's going to be fat" or "she's going to be gay" uh oh (or both)? Because I don't mind either way.

TM

*Okay, that's not true. I don't want her to be fat, but I'll never give her a complex about it.

[dtb]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I realize you're joking, but is this a "she's going to be fat" or "she's going to be gay" uh oh (or both)? Because I don't mind either way.

TM

*Okay, that's not true. I don't want her to be fat, but I'll never give her a complex about it.

I hadn't even considered the "fat" angle. True confession: I laughed. OH, how I laughed.

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I realize you're joking, but is this a "she's going to be fat" or "she's going to be gay" uh oh (or both)? Because I don't mind either way.

TM

*Okay, that's not true. I don't want her to be fat, but I'll never give her a complex about it.

Definitely a joke. I agree (and I'm going to have two daughters very soon).